old man emu Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Fly_Tornado, GET OFF THIS THREAD! Your comment is cool, calm and considered and therefore has absolutely no place here. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Eightyknots , Sorry, didn't mean to scare you...just trying to make the point that you can't live a life wrapped in cotton wool...well you can but it's a pretty boring one. I've got my own daughter in Europe right now flying around on commercial airlines, so there you go !. Commercial flights actually fly all the time with unserviceabilities. The have a minimum equipment list, (MEL) and as long as they maintain that they can fly. Except on Hamilton Island of course where all things have to be servicable in and out. If something breaks after they park they are there until they fly a mechanic in to fix it. Even the pilots have a special Hamilton Is endorsement as the airport does not comply with normal airport criteria (hangar too close to runway)........There was that cool, calm and considered ?...................................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 It's just a theory, when I saw him pull up I thought he was just exiting the race, the guys do tend to pull up quiet hard when they exit a race as the are pretty close to the runway and they need to get some maneuvering room. Even when he did that first snap roll I thought he was just making way for the plane he passed on the last lap. It was only when he went inverted that I realised he was in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Fast aeroplanes have a massive trim change acrosss the speed range. In any case the stick position would vary enormously from the turn, ( where you need the lift), to on the straight. I doubt that a trim tab equipped elevator system is adequate. A variable incidence horizontal stabilizer is used in jets and it operates through over 20 degrees.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Popular Mechanics have an article on this. "The dangerous legacy of the Reno Air Races" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Popular Mechanics have an article on this."The dangerous legacy of the Reno Air Races" A well worded emotionless discussion of the various factors involved in air racing. Would we be going off like we are in this thread if the plane had made it another 50 metres before hitting the ground? OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I just can't work out how the pilot completely disappeared in another side on photo... unless his neck was broken and his head came off before impact... from this photo it seems that just slumping forward would show something of him under normal circumstances... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Popular Mechanics have an article on this."The dangerous legacy of the Reno Air Races" They're just reporting the facts. A good comparison with this is the Indy 500 which had a similar legacy of fatalities. After a particularly bad one, vehicle standards were changed and a catch fence added. Today the Indy 500 is just as good to watch, and for the drivers just as good to drive, but death and injuries have all but been taken out of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I just can't work out how the pilot completely disappeared in another side on photo... unless his neck was broken and his head came off before impact... from this photo it seems that just slumping forward would show something of him under normal circumstances... Win, interestingly no shoulder harness mountings are visible in the photo, so he could have finished up anywhere. I'd judge the canopy base to be about level with the bottom of his ear and the helmet would have been about 40 mm above his head, so it wouldn't take much for him to disappear from view. Looks like there were other design issues - note the grinding marks around the windscreen rivets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Turbo... the photo I believe is from 2009 when the Ghost was being prepared for her return to the "ring"... I also believe that he is sitting on the full harness including shoulder straps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 OK, let's say he drops 25 mm due to the straps, that's the middle of the ear, more likely he would go out of sight. I've still got some doubt about shoulder srtaps - the mountings must be well above the shoulders to avoid a vertebrae crush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Nothing is impossible... It just seems improbable that he was so completely gone from view... but I say again not impossible. I do seriously doubt that he wasn't wearing shoulder straps... but then again even with them on I have noticed a fair few older pilots who are in the habit of leaving their shoulder straps loose... possibly a throw back to a time when most aircraft just had a lap belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Good post on the previous page OME. From all my reading of the details, that seems to be the most likely scenario and chain of events. It seems he was incapacitated early on up to the point he hit the ground. Of course, as always with these types of accidents, people prefer to believe that he bravely steered it away from the crowd at the last second - but that seems pretty unlikely. I think it was probably more a bit of good luck that it didn't come down right into the middle of the spectators (or perhaps just bad luck that it crashed so close to them?). As for the string of airshow accidents recently, well, low level racing, low level aerobatics, and low level wing-walking are all risky business. We the public demand a spectacle and fast, furious death defying action we can see up close. Except that the law of averages says that eventually death will no longer be defied. Even the best risk-mitigation in the world isn't going to stop that. Just delay it a little longer. It's our choice really. If we want to see these spectacular shows and there are people prepared to trade the risks for money, we have to face up to this fact, like any high-octane spectator sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Win, I was looking for the shoulder harness anchor points with harness coming down, which should be up behind his neck. There's a safety issue with leaving shoulder straps loose: firstly all the initial strain comes on the waist belt, which can injure you secondly, if your upper torso gets momentum started then comes up against the belts you can break bones, or worse, slide out of the belts Similarly if you tighten the shoulder straps more that the waist belt you can get spinal injuries because all vertical forces are being resisted by the shoulders rather than being shared with the waist belt. Whenever I rolled out onto the track, the last thing I did before accelerating was pull the shoulder harness down tight to jam me into the seat...until one of the guys became a paraplegic after his spine was compressed. It's amazing the spaces the body will squeeze into under high g's I'm these cases I'm talking about a survivable crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drifter45 Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 Reading this thread it seems that if there is a problem the SOP is to gain altitude asap and if the problem is insurmountable then bailout. Some racers with this in mind may think shoulder harness straps would impede their getting out quickly and opt for lap strap only. Just a thought. cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 A five point harness snaps open in a single action drifter - has to, in case of fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drifter45 Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Point taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
av8vfr Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 just a theory... could the news have photoshopped the pic before release to remove the pilot if the image was too graphic? I know I wouldn't want to see the details... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Here's a good explanation of what happens when a trim tab fails at high speed: http://macsblog.com/2011/09/why-the-trim-tab-on-a-racer-matters-so-much/ Some interesting discussion following the article too. rgmwa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Here's a good explanation of what happens when a trim tab fails at high speed:http://macsblog.com/2011/09/why-the-trim-tab-on-a-racer-matters-so-much/ rgmwa Hmmm. He said what I said in Post #38. And a darned good explanation of the function of the horizontal stabiliser, too. I have heard that heaps of money was spent on the plane from the wing trailing edge forward to the spinner. This makes me wonder if there had been any changes to the aerodynamic size of teh horizontal stabiliser. Consider the effects of the reduction in Lift from a standard P51 as a result of reducing the wing area through clipping the wings. Then if the horizontal stabiliser was the same size as in the standard P51, it would be producing more lift than the short wings would require. This would account to some extent for teh need for heaps of nose-down trim and stick full forward when the airplane was travelling at race speeds. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 This article says the Galloping Ghost recorded 22.5 g's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 more "speculation". I managed to catch up with a yank I was talking to on the bus to the races on Thursday. He was seated in section G which was right under the crash. The photos he sent me put the hair on the back of my neck and arms stand up. I was just starting to get over it too... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Get away from the "if onlys" F_T, that's a bad place to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 You can't not be effected by the photos, they are disturbing. I avoided looking @ the guts and gore when I was there so that I could get through my holiday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 FT... are you still Stateside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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