David Isaac Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 It would seem that recognising the 'Standard', teaching the 'Standard' correctly and assessing competency against the 'Standard' are the potential issues for RAA and arguabley some in GA as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Foxy, apart from the good points you make about the Coroner's Court, in the go/no go world of Public Liability it would almost certainly be a Duty of Care failure which could cost am Instructor his/her house, and even his/her freedom. If you are an Instructor paid to conduct a BFR which requires demonstration of certain skills, and you sign off without that demonstration, then it's pretty much the equivalent of a factory owner telling an employee to put the guard back on the saw, the employee saying he doesn't need it, and the owner allowing production to continue without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I can't reply to you foxy , anymore than suggest you have got me absolutely wrong. Please read what I have said carefully. I have consistently urged a higher standard of instruction up to the stage I am sick of saying it. Don't read anything into what I have said than is there. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Yes and you know what I don't even fail them if they can't do, I just ask that they go away and practise it in their own time knowing there is a good chance they won't, at least they won't come back to me and someone else can take responsibility for them. FH, these are the lines people appear to have taken exception to, not what he was advocating before this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Yeah, but we all put a throw away line in occasionally (for emphasis?) and get hung for it. Communicating on a forum is not easy. You're like a little defenseless animal in a big forest full of predators. Nev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Yeah, but we all put a throw away line in occasionally (for emphasis?) and get hung for it. Communicating on a forum is not easy. You're like a little defenseless animal in a big forest full of predators. Nev Which is why I would like Teckair to come back on and put the issues and challenges he faces up, so we can collectively help resolve the issues for him. You can sure as hell bet he is not the only one with the same issues in RAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Ok, every body count to 10.... I think Teck should write a reply and explain exactly what he meant. Because as it is, his post is hanging in cyber space like an axe over our heads. Ive always approached BFR's as a review, not a flight test. My understanding is a general flying skills assessment followed by instruction on weak areas. Most of the time the pilot will indicate what areas he feels not confident in and the "lesson" can be focussed towards either refreshing or full blown proper instruction on that particular sequence. The other part is an extensive ground briefing on any regulatory changes etc. The way the rule makers change the Laws is difficult to keep up with and all pilots have holes in their knowledge (instructors included). The last BFR i did a couple of weeks ago was in the piper sports. An accident had just occurred in qld in the same type, so the pilot and I discussed the issues, namely stalling and fuel management. Pilots who learn on types that dont have selectable fuel tanks often find it difficult to manage the fuel, so we climbed to 3 thousand over the field and turned the fuel off, the goal was to see what symptoms occur in what order so as to recognize it before the fan stops and do something about it. We ascertained that the aeroplane gives you about 20 seconds of warning before the engine starts to run rough. Great, no problems. Fuel pump on, swap tanks, land and change undergarments. But..One thing that is an absolute must, in my opinion, they simply MUST get a PFL in. If the checks and radio calls aren't up to scratch (and they almost always aren't) then that can be handled in a briefing, but if they can't get it home, then its back up and try again...and again...and again...until they can. They always walk away feeling confident and that the "lesson" was a success. Nev you are correct, we can't force people to fly, but we can stop them...;) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Moore Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I think Nev really hit the nail on the head with his earlier comment. We all hear of pilots who have an "instructor friend" and get an over the phone BFR. But there are also those instructors who tend to be (in my opinion) to stringent. Some guys want to carry out a full PPL check ride for a BFR, and others get all twisted up in knots if you mix your radio calls up just a little (like say Traffic Location instead of Location Traffic, which while it can be bought to the pilots attention is not in any way making him a dangerous, uneducated pilot). The standards for teaching in GA & RAA from what I have experienced are pretty much the same as realistically the way both aircraft categories fly is relatively similar and face the same emergency situations. All conversation I have heard to the contrary of that seem to, as far as I can figure out, be either hearsay or school/instructor specific as opposed to category specific. Now I am not saying relax a little, prudent emergency technique and current, updated training is a staple of a safe pilot. Still I think that those instructors who are to over the top with training tend to give both categories of aviation just as much of a bad name as those who are to lax. I also find those over stringent instructors tend to be more interested in waxing lyrical about their prejudice to the lack in flying ability of pilots these days than they are in actually teaching people how to fly!! The best instructors are the ones who want to make sure you as the pilot can fly and make decision prudent to the aircraft type and situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 We seem to be bagging Teckair, without really listening to what he is trying to tell us.No instructor can force any pupil to do more flying with him. I don't believe Teckair signed the pilot off. Correct me if I am wrong too, but if I roll up a month early for my BFR and perform woefully in some aspect, I am still fully legal to fly up until my existing BFR expires. Without a new BFR signoff in my logbook at the time of the expiry of the earlier BFR, I am then unable to fly. So in that case it would not be acting against any standards to tell a student to go out and practice, and come back or go to another instructor. Teckair didn't actually say that he signed the guy off, this debate could really have blown up out of a simple misreading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Correct me if I am wrong too, but if I roll up a month early for my BFR and perform woefully in some aspect, I am still fully legal to fly up until my existing BFR expires. Without a new BFR signoff in my logbook at the time of the expiry of the earlier BFR, I am then unable to fly. So in that case it would not be acting against any standards to tell a student to go out and practice, and come back or go to another instructor. Teckair didn't actually say that he signed the guy off, this debate could really have blown up out of a simple misreading. Correct Bandit you are legal until your BFR period expires competent or not. But the competency is what the BFR is supposed to pick up and reestablish. What Teckair did say was: "Yes and you know what I don't even fail them if they can't do, I just ask that they go away and practise it in their own time knowing there is a good chance they won't, at least they won't come back to me and someone else can take responsibility for them. You are correct he did not say he signed them off, but I think that was implied and hopefully he will come back on and share the challenges he faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Bandit. Well spotted mate and let's hope your idea is close to the truth. On the same token one would hope that if a pilot became aware that his skills were significantly lacking he/she would take imediate action to rectify the problem and not just stoog around and hope like he'll the fan keeps blowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 The point made is of responsibility spelled out or inferred. It is a clouded situation. Perhaps suggesting that some privare practice would be a good idea does go a step towards acting appropriately, especially adding that IF the standard can't be attained, further dual instruction would be advised . I have had assigned to me, a licenced private pilot who had sinned in some way or other, for 15 hours compulsory dual instruction . This was on the insistence of the then DCA. ( casa equivalent). I guess this was a punishment.( 15 hours with me might be considered cruel and inhuman punishment, actually), and it also brings up the concept that training is punishment. Somewhat negative conditioning. ALL students should see dual as an opportunity to improve their skills and the instructor should be up to the task of it being an interesting and positive experience. Nonetheless, there would be occasions where a particular instructor/student relationship is lacking something. The obvious thing is to try a "second opinion". It is no absolute condemnation of anyone. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Let's not start fabricating things to cover up something that needs to be addressed. The reference was not to a single case, which may have been someone conveniently coming in early for a BFR and being sent away to quietly reflect for a few months beside a lily laden lagoon before determinedly hitting the books, doing 7 flying sessions and coming back. This referred to multiple deficient pilots being allowed to go out there, carrying passengers, and representing the RAA culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandit12 Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Easy Turbs.....or it may have just been Teck's manner of speaking (in text), or it may have been that his statement was coloured by a couple of recent experiences which came to mind and now looks like it is an epidemic, when really it was only a couple of experiences. Teck did say that he expects pilots to be able to do a glide approach in a BFR. I know myself that it is probably the area I am going to be most rusty at every two years, and no matter how many times I loop, roll and spin, I know that I don't practice glide approaches or precautionary landings like I should. If an instructor suggested to me that I needed to come back and do an hour dual to practice them before signing me off, I certainly wouldn't take offence. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Nor would I, in fact I always ask to be picked up on every little thing, given a tough time - it's when you think you have it all under control that the mistakes start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 We do not live in a perfect world for sure. There is work to be done in both GA and the RAAus scene. I have always believed it has to start at the beginning. A student hangs on every word the instructor says. He is an authority figure in a "pastime?" that the student is just starting out in. Wrong information (or lack of the right information, is just as bad) can catch up anytime in the future. There is little room for confusion. It increases reaction time and clouds planning and decision making capability. What a sad thing it is to see someone come unstuck because they adopted the wrong technique or didn't know the right one for the situation. Are we flying by numbers or do we understand what we are doing? Understanding it makes it easy(er). Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 The purpose of my posts was to try and make youngster, who is at the learning stage, a safe pilot and backup what smokeybear had said about being able to glide to safe landing area in the event of an engine failure. I hate it when I see news footage of an aircraft that has hit the ground hard, in what looks like a clear area, with injuries or loss of life. Lately we have had a few too many of these accidents. Recently we had a double fatal accident involving an instructor and student near here. Rightly or wrongly I feel pilots do not put enough importance on being able to survive an engine failure eg flying over areas where a emergency landing can be done and being able to do it if needed. This is not just RAAus pilots but ASRA and GA as well (basicly any one flying for fun). I have not felt this is a short coming with RAAus management ( I don't know about the others) but rather an attitude problem amongst too many pilots. Once I was flying low over the Adelaide hills in a 172 with a GA instructor when I asked him where we would go if the engine stopped his answer was "if you don't talk about it it won't happen" and luckily it didn't that time. This opinion in regard to RAAus pilots has been formed by the results (crashes) and some pilot BFRs. With BFRs I try too help people to become safe pilots, as with all training, I regard the BFR as a review not a test and an opportunity to sort out any problems the pilot may have in flying safely including keeping up with latest rule changes in flying operations. I think it was a mistake to talk about individual flight training experiences on this public forum. I hope this conveys the intention, reason and spirit my posts were made with. Regards Richard. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Teck. Mate. God help the raa if there's instructors like that getting around. I`m not here to defend Techair, I know he`s capable of doing that himself! I know Techair personaly and he`s no idiot! He`s been flying " Ultralights" and instructing long before many on this forum even thought of it. As an active forum member, I want to see good debate on an issue, not muck slinging or an attempt to put the other guy down! There`s nothing to be gained by that. Please show a little respect, because it`s blokes like him who helped put in place what RAA now has to offer. Frank. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Frank. That was me being respectful.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Frank. That was me being respectful.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Why does that keep happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Isaac Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 .... Please show a little respect, because it`s blokes like him who helped put in place what RAA now has to offer.... Franko, It all got a bit hot on this topic and many of us were surprised when Teckair expressed his frustrations and there was a bit of understandable reaction. I think now we have all settled down, some of us have had PMs with him, I personally feel for him and he has put the record straight in his last post. We as a community need to get behind all our instructors and give them the teeth they need to raise the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Why does that keep happening? Just one click on the 'Submit post' button will do it Motz - 2 clicks, or a double click is likely to submit 2 identical posts. You just want to get your post count up!! Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Hahaha... I suspect it's cause I'm usin my iPhone. I'm not checked out on it yet, need heaps more dual I think.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKW Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 Hahaha... I suspect it's cause I'm usin my iPhone. I'm not checked out on it yet, need heaps more dual I think.;) or just a good briefing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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