frank marriott Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 2 of the new model engines have failed in the last 3 weeks. Both low time engines.. Back to the drawing board.. Merv Not wanting to buy into the debate, just for my info - Can you tell me what fuel is being used i.e. 100/130 or 95 RON? FrankM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 So....thinking at a tangent.... As a private pilot, flying my J230 is ultimately my decision and if something bad where to happen as a result of a J engine failure, then if my family wanted to hold someone responsible then the olnly parties invovled are J, RAA and me as owner/pilot. As a flying school owner, having paid FI's flying around in J's, if an in flight engine failure occured leading to a fatality because we all know that despit the training there is no rule that states 100% of every emergency landing will end well, where it was resonably well known that the J engine reliability was subpar, where would the School owner and or CFI stand when the FI's family wanted to make someone accountable for their loss? It seems to me that the school would be added to the list of involved parties and in order of closeness to the accident would likely appear higher in the list than perhaps the owner or RAA would. It seems to me that the family is unlikely to take on J direct as the transactions that ultimately lead to the death didnt occur directly between the FI and J.... Although duty of care would seeme to extend beyond a single commercial transaction.. Or to put it another way, if you as a school owner know there is a problem with reliability and despite that keep sending your FI's aloft with paying customers, then are you providing the duty of care that a court would hold you to account for? I would assume that knowing there is a problem, but having applied all J identified AD's and knowing that the problem still appears not to be fixed, can you successfully argue that you did all that you had to, to the satisfaction of the court? Forecast is for no Black and white but horizon to horizon grey......... Anyone? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster87 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 2 of the new model engines have failed in the last 3 weeks. Both low time engines.. Back to the drawing board.. Which ones? 4 or 6 cylinder Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 All of those people should by now have taken advice from a Public Liability lawyer Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 They are probably better than most 2 strokes, (but nobody uses THEM for training with insurance do they? The lawyers put light aircraft manufacturers out of the skies in the US, for a while. There are riskier things done than flying a jabiru. You can't control all the circumstances they operate in, and some do not get ideal servicing., and perhaps some don't cool as well as they should. Depends on the way the cowl is set up and how the engine is operated. On hot days if the temps start to rise I would increase climb speed straight away. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKW Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 2 of the new model engines have failed in the last 3 weeks. Both low time engines.. Back to the drawing board.. Hello Motz, can you give us any details as to the nature of these failures? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 We should be proud that a little Aussie firm can make and export such good aircraft. We all wish the engine was better. Jabiru probably expanded far more than they could have envisaged, and company governance may not have kept up (does this sound a little like AUF/RAAus?). Existing owners want their engines upgraded. New buyers want the engines redesigned to improve reliability. More testing and certification might push up the price, reducing competitiveness. The Aussie Dollar has hammered sales, especially the export market. With increasing talk of litigation, Jabiru's lawyers will presumably be advising against any hint of admitting deficiencies in design or workmanship. It could open the floodgates to potentially thousands of claims and put them out of business, as happened in the USA. Lets put ourselves in the shoes of Jabiru Engines management. They don't have unlimited resources. Where should they put their money? What would you do? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Jabiru have already offered free new through bolts and fitting to effected engines although not the larger dia ones. Id suggest that by now no listed engines should be still running old through bolts and narrow nuts....... i very much doubt this to be the case. As has been discussed some of these failures hadnt even implemented the SB published People stirring for legal action really need to keep quiet, especially those not involved. No one is likely to get anything that way from a small privately owned company. Everyone would be served better by improved product not the closure of the business. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Only just had a read of this, I was talking to the guys from Rotec at temora ,looks like their water cooled heads would solve a lot of the top end issues with the Jab donk, can't see Jabiru wanting anything to do with them though, it would be a huge admission that the current parts are no goodMet They look good, however may not be available anymore and the fairly slow uptake may mean the problem they are solving isnt as widespread as many believe. Some of the manufacturing techniques and materials used would be good inclusions to the Jabiru engine range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JabSP6 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Jetjr Just curious why you mention the LC heads may not be available anymore. I recently purchased a set (a month ago) for a 3300 that is receiving a complete strip down and full rebuild. Very old motor that had never been run for 12 years. Safe Flying JabSP6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 There was a rumour thread that the manufacturer may no longer be in business An old 3300 is a good start at building a strong reliable Jabiru engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JabSP6 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Jetjr I contacted Paul (rotec) ealier this week. I can confirm that they have moved out of the old shed and into a temporary factory while they wait for their new 700 square m factory to be built at the Tyabb Airfield. It is buisness as usual for him and his team. The motor i have to work with is serial no 81 and was surprisingly clean internally (rust free) for having never been run from the time it left the factory in February 2000. This motor is going into a 19 build aircraft so part of the upgrade from the old heads was to use the LC heads. Looking at the cost of replacing old heads with the fine finned heads worked about the same as the LC heads. There will be several things done to this motor to improve its reliability and it will remain a solid lifter motor. I will be using the 7/16" through bolts for those of you interested. It will be run on a dyno prior to being installed to the airframe. Should be a great motor when the project is complete. Safe Flying JabSP6 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Excellent news I suggest you are on track to have a good powerplant there. Fit South African FADEC or SDS injection and youll have a very nice combo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JabSP6 Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Jetjr For now the standard alternator setup with regulator will be fitted along with the bing carby. Depending on the finances i have suggested fitting the 35amp alternator upgrade in place of the original system with the intent of suggesting fitting the S.A FADEC when it eventually gets released to the public. I agree that with the mechanical upgrades combined with the FADEC it should be a very strong reliable motor for many years to come. Looking forward to seeing the results. Safe Flying JabSP6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirsty Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I joined the Jef this week. Had an exhaust valve fail halfway on downwind with a student in the plane. Shut the engine off immediately and did an uneventful glide approach to the departure runway. We also had a low time pilot have the exact same failure two days before. He didn't shut down straight away and kept the engine going which eventually ended in complete engine failure with a destroyed piston, head and rod on number 2 cylinder. So 2 exhaust valve failures in 3 days. On the first engine it had all the new mods and had done about 500 hours and on mine it had done about 900 hours. It's all well and good to be trained to always fly with somewhere to land but until you experience an engine failure it's all just theory. I now religiously fly from paddock to paddock! Last thing, I was on the last of three circuits before I was going to send the student solo! So if the engine had of held on for another couple of minutes he would likely have had an engine failure on takeoff, sobering for us instructors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 No good at all, glad it ended safely in both cases Very strange to see two AC go at the same time - any chance fuel quality is a problem Any idea what EGT were in these cylinders prior to the stoppage? Keeping an eye on potential landing sites and pre take off mantra is key to competently handling a major problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JabSP6 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Thirsty. Firstly well done to land it safely and i'm sure that will be one of the best lesson your student could have. Like jetjr, i am curious if your plane has EGT and CHT monitors. I had an exhaust valve failure and my CHT on no 6 was always showing good temps. Turns out no 2 cyl was running quite hot and also with the setup in my plane the EGT's were way too high (lean). I was not aware of the issues until after it failed. Once i rebuilt the motor and fitted monitoring equipment i sorted the issues and all is good now. It would also be interesting to see what the condition of the valve guides are like. At 500 and 900 hrs there is a fair chance that these guides could be quite badly worn if they are still original. I have fitted K liner inserts in my guides and on inspection at 350 hrs all is good and within specs where as previously at 100 hrs standard guides were quite worn. No valve will last if the guides are worn. Can you keep us informed on the results of the engine strip down. Safe Flying JabSP6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Good to hear that you and the other guys are OK Thirsty.Where they Solid lifter engines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirsty Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Thanks guys. These aircraft are owned by the school I teach at and there is no engine monitoring apart from the standard cht gauge on #4. The aircraft are lsa55 so we tend to not run the engines too hard otherwise we end up way over 90knots which is where vma starts on these aircraft. We use shell optimax premium unleaded almost exclusively though they do get a bit of avgas every now and then. The engine that failed first and most destructively has been torn down and there appears to be no further damage other than the piston, rod and barrel. Those parts have all been replaced along with the big end bearing on that rod. Everything else looks good with no runout in the crank being evident. The engine of the aircraft I was flying is back in service as there was very little damage due to my shutting it down very quickly after the initial noise. We replaced the piston and head with everything else being ok. Sp6 - I don't believe we can use non standard parts due to their operation in a flying school so we are stuck with what jabiru supply. With my own aircraft (j160) with a low time engine I am installing cht and egt monitoring on all four cylinders this weekend. Instrument and leads are from Mgl avionics. Hopefully that will help me with stopping something like this happening to me again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryon Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Thirsty, welcome to the club and I am thankful that everything turned out OK The good thing about this experience is now, when you teach a student emergency procedures, you can do it from first hand experience. The only good thing about jabs, is that you can put into practice your emergency procedures on a regular basis Cheers Bryon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKW Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 The only good thing about jabs, is that you can put into practice your emergency procedures on a regular basisCheers Bryon The other good thing about Jabs is, if you are in this unfortunate situation, you are more likely to survive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 What a load of BS! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrayonBox Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Here is a service bulletin if anyone wants a tech read about the fix that has been implemented. http://www.jabiru.net.au/Service%20Bulletins/Engine%20files/JSB031-1_JSD031-1_Engine_Through_Bolts.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 The other good thing about Jabs is, if you are in this unfortunate situation, you are more likely to survive! Hmm I would agree the aircraft is more likely to survive, after all Ive seen some jabs returned to service that looked like bonfire material only after the crash....Whether the pilot survives, that, as always depends on the deceleration forces at the time of the crash, exceed these and die...its that simple no matter what craft your in Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Thirsty Do you know when the last leakdown test was done and what results were obtained? I have found lead [or similar] buildups on the valve stems restricting movement causing valve burn and ultimate failure if not addressed. This shows up in the leakdown test. [i do one every 50hrs] This may not be relevant to your particular case but has been found on 2 x J230Ds at my field. The problems were resolved by removing the head and cleaning the valve stem and guide - the valve seats were not even burnt but a fine paste reseat done whilst apart. [We run 100% avgas] This may be of interest to you. FrankM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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