Mick Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Here's the regulation: CAR 228 Unauthorised persons not to manipulate controls (1) A person must not manipulate the controls of an aircraft in flight if the person is not either: (a) the pilot assigned for duty in the aircraft; or (b) a student pilot assigned for instruction in the aircraft Penalty: 25 penalty units [about $2800.00] (2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability [which means you are prosecuted under the Crimes Act] If this was to be applied to the absolute letter then as a qualified pilot you cannot "have a feel" of an aircraft you wish to buy because you are neither the "pilot assigned for duty" nor a student pilot. As I said in my earlier post, demo flights are a grey area when it comes to fitting it into the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 That is correct Mick, and it is applied to the absolute letter, and demo flights are not a grey area. It's easily solved by training to qualify as an Instructor. Maybe one of he Instructors could tell us of the training they do to recover an aircraft from some of the crazy things people do. I know of a number of deaths including two in the last 12 months, where the aircraft either broke up, or otherwise unnecessarily went head first into the ground because it was operated incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 In response to Metalmans comment how about this scenario Pilot in the LHS has a pilot certificate AND owns the aircraft but no Xcountry endorsement the pilot in the RHS has a Xcountry endorsement and is also endorsed on type can that aircraft then fly past the 25 nm limit because the pilot in the RHS is doing the navigating under his endorsement Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 ..........always looking for that invisible loophole................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Maybe so Turbo but what is actually wrong with this scenario?....is it actually unsafe or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 It can be unsafe because two people can disagree, and the CARS were evolved over a long period of time based on events which actually happened. It can be safe if two people made an agreement on tasking....but we don't have the option of taking the next step and doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieselten Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 When I have the luxury of flying on my own in very smooth air I practice flying with as much precision as I can physically achieve. Ball in the middle, wings absolutely level. Every turn perfectly balanced. No loss or gain of altitude in turns. The gentlest turns possible, like a 747 on autopilot in cruise. I try to become one with the aircraft to the point where the aircraft appears suspended in time and space and the earth is simply scrolling past, laid out for my viewing pleasure. Some of my best flying memories have come from trying to fly as precisely as possible. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Diesel, nice if the conditions are smooth. You can be smooth too. The thing that gets me in the gut is where some poor bugger goes for a fly in his new plane that he may have built, and comes back and the weather has gone bad and gusty and he/she tries a landing and rolls it into a ball enough to die. If proper training was done this would not happen. You can use other examples of CFIT, balls up turn backs, getting lost , not understanding weather, fuel management. ( today more pilots run out of fuel than I can ever remember, but they even do it in cars on bridges and block the traffic. Test flying seems to claim more victims than it should. I don't want complexity for it's own sake, but any aeroplane is an aeroplane and not a toy. The EAA ( USA) do it well, so much better than we do.. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Test flying seems to claim more victims than it should. I don't want complexity for it's own sake, but any aeroplane is an aeroplane and not a toy. The EAA ( USA) do it well, so much better than we do.. Nev In the US, some of the major kit manufacturers including Vans, Sonex, Kitfox, Lancair and Zenith have just formed the Aircraft Kit Industry Association (AKIA). This is supported by the EAA and is partly a response to increasing pressure from the FAA and NTSB for action to address the accident statistics in amateur built aircraft, and includes an increased focus on transition training and the competencies required to test fly new aircraft. rgmwa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I was taught a sixth "S" - Sivilisation - is there a farmhouse nearby where you will be able to bludge a cold beer to congratulate yourself on a successful forced landng! A fun thought, but actually a very bad idea to try to land close to any buildings, sheds, yards etc. Power lines are most prevalent near man made structures. Also, usually the roughest and smallest paddocks on the property. This is the 'old' advice on forced landings. With your mobile phone at the ready, it makes sense to land in the biggest,smoothest paddock - and casually make your call from there. A few years back, a very experienced glider instructor made an outlanding near Quairading,WA - using this very thinking of get close to the house - and nearly killed himself on power lines near it. happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 True Pots, however, the wossss check is also a priority order, so being near houses is last on the list. But also in a Precautionary search and landing it moves up the list. Its no good needing fuel (for instance) and needing it to be airlifted in. Or getting lost and landing to ask the wallabies where you are...;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 You may have trouble getting your mobile phone to work in some places, so far out is far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 And we are assuming your able to use your fingers ;). My big worry would be laying unconscious or stuck for days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 You all have valid points, but I'm unconvinced about the proximity to habitation bit. Having seen a number of scary old ram/bull paddocks close to homesteads...... not for this coward - I want to walk away, not be cut out. And, having seen a lot of powerlines only after 300 degrees of turn, and with spurlines all over the place............... I'm for the big paddock a mile away! Anyway, all this discussion assumes a nice 'in cruise' engine out - which isn't often the case. happy days, 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 The engine fail case is the one we think of, but all of my outlandings have been when the engine is still running The usual cause has been weather. When the engine has ceased to function you have very little room for variation of plan. Also the approach/landing is more compromised. With many practice force landings over the years it is surprising how often a single wire powerline turns up. One of the main reasons not to land on a road is the possible presence of powerlines. If you still have an engine running you can check this (and traffic) out, before you commit. A cattle grid caused a friend of mine a plane write-off in western NSW years ago. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Yea it's those SWER lines that often catch a pilot out.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boingk Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I've learnt a lot, and not only doing basic flight and emergency procedures. The other day I had a real one! It was an engine failure on takeoff, the result of my CFI's and my own preoccupation with setting and understanding flap speeds and throttle settings on a new aircraft (my Minicab) on final; we forgot the carby heat. On takeoff (touch 'n' go landing) I felt/heard a dramatic reduction in engine rpm and power. I immediately set idle power and lowered the nose, bringing up down rather swiftly for a landing. No damage was done and we were able to stop easily before the end of the strip. My CFI and I were a little bit shaken and agreed to not go up again until I'd made sure it was icing and not a binding linkage or blockage. Static throttling tests and inspection confirmed the icing theory. The above is one experience I won't sorget in a hurry, and definitely a showcase of training/learning - do not forget your basic training and always make sure you are doing the right things, in the right order, at the right time! - boingk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 10/10 we're all going to miss something like carb heat at some stage, great to see the rest just kicked in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 You've got a Continental haven't you? Any tiime you close the throttle, pull it on straight away and get used to that. I'm not sure I would take it off till you land but to cover the go around situation always check throttle forward and carb heat forward too. Make it an automatic action. Some of those engines are quite susceptible to icing. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Yea it's those SWER lines that often catch a pilot out.. Yep -SWER stands for Single Wire Earth Return.Just for people who maybe interested. Nearly imposible to see a SWER line from above looking down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 Yea it's those SWER lines that often catch a pilot out.. Yep, there called SWER lines but really they are SWEAR lines cause that's what you do when you see them:crazy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boingk Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Don't worry, Nev, its been a habit since I've been taught to fly - any decent or lower than cruise power situation sees carby heat put on. The above mentioned incident has imprinted it indellibly into my brain, though, for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 How accurate should my flying be ? I would be very worried if a lost Australia whilst on a Nav. Now where the F*&^ did Australia go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zibi Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 How accurate should my flying be ?I would be very worried if a lost Australia whilst on a Nav. Now where the F*&^ did Australia go. You may want to try north Atlantic : http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/australia.shtml As for the topic - I guess it should be pretty good, as I'm about 2 (flying) hours away from my flight test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 To see a SWER line you look for the poles NOT the wires as you can't see them from 500 mtrs anyway. But the poles stand out...single pole no crossarm is a dead give away 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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