Scooby Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I recently had a debate with some people on youtube. I watched a video where an instructor was taking a student through PFL practice in which he completely stopped the engine. My point is that by doing this, it has become an actual emergency as now the aircraft must be landed safely. The way i look at it is that if the aircraft bounced, there would be no chance of recovery without the application of full throttle and the instructor has no control over the aircraft if this was the case. My question is, would you consider this an actual emergency? Is there any real benefit to PFL's being done with a completely stopped engine? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 When I learnt to fly gliders we had no engine! I think it does depend on the aircraft getting used though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted July 28, 2012 Author Share Posted July 28, 2012 When I learnt to fly gliders we had no engine! I think it does depend on the aircraft getting used though. Your right Tomo, but the video in question was a CTLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Hey Scoob, per the ops manual, the only person that can turn off the engine is the CFI as PIC in the aircraft, he better be damn sure that he can recover any situation after dead sticking it as he is not only answerable to the family, RA Aus,and the insurance company if it goes pear shaped, but he will have to ask himself what actual benefit he was trying to show from the exercise. While it certainly adds "reality " to the exercise, and may show the true glide characteristics of the aircraft. I feel more time catching pilots out just by pulling the throttle when they least expect it or, waiting till they are miles out in circuit, sure sorts them out and teaches more valuable lessons about positioning and situational awareness. I'm sure there will be numerous other views on this subject, but dead sticking is something glider pilots do all the time, go fly a few hours in them if you want quet with your aviation experience, otherwise you might as well just turn the mags off as you roll up to the hangar! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 To my knowledge it is only with a CFI on board that you are permitted to shut down in flight. I have done it in those circumstances. I certainly did not consider this an actual emergancy. We shut down at 2500 ft above the airfield. This done at the end of a BFR after a really good session of PFL's & EFIC's. I don't think at that point that it was likely that we would bounce a landing so badly that it would be impossible to recover without power. I guess it really is up to the judgement of the CFI as to whether he considers this a risk or not. I do believe it is beneficial as the aircraft will glide differently with the prop stopped as opposed to a low idle. I am certainly glad that I have done it and know a bit more of what to expect when the day comes that the prop really does stop. I reckon it is a good idea to get an idea of the difference in a non emergency situation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I feel sorry for pilots who have never dead sticked. It's a valuable aspect of any solid training. Believe me, the first time you can read the serial numbers On the back of a stopped prop, you want your chief sitting next to you. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I prefer to only stop one at a time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I prefer to only stop one at a time... Yea, well 800 ft/ min if climb on one engine ;) just makes it like a normal acft ... Lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damkia Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Years ago I used to ride with a commercial (ex military) chopper pilot who made a habit of dead sticking a landing every month to keep himself current, even with pax on board. A bit hair raising as a passenger at first but there was a comfort in knowing he could do it wherever he was if needed for real. The fact that he had demonstrated it to most of the people that flew with him was reassuring and actually made for a calm cabin. By "normalizing" the procedure he took the stress out of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Using a decent runway to start with, until you have a feel for the aircraft and can work out exactly where you'll end up etc... make an aiming point and stick to it, if you miss it, do it again until you can consecutively land in a relatively similar spot. Personally I think everyone should have multiple lessons on deadstick landings. Why? It comes back to human factors... what was your initial reaction when the instructor pulled the power on you for the first time? What is your reaction when the engine stops all by itself when you least expect it for the first time? (unfortunately I found out mine!) Pretty much guaranteed you'll panic, which doesn't help with thought processing and rational thinking. Is that why we have so many spin ins after engine stoppages? When you're still sitting in a perfectly flying aeroplane? In my opinion one way to become almost 'comfortable' with it is to practice it and 'know' your ability to get it on the ground safely. You can take that anyway you like, but, it's in the statistics isn't it? Hudson river expedition for example... what was the pilot of that also used too? Bet he's never practiced a deadstick in a passenger jet before though! But he knew it wasn't the end of the world, and just used what he had, where he was, to his best ability and made some pretty reasonable decisions too, and lived to tell the tail, including his passengers. Which effectively is what we all strive to do!! Point I'm trying to bring across is, it may not be a good idea to jump in a Kingair and completely shut down at 4000ft and have a merry time on the way down for a deadstick landing. But any aircraft that you aren't going to hurt the engine by switching it off, or damage in anyway, get a CFI willing to teach you, and do it. If you can't find anyone willing to do that, jump in a glider for a day. Once you pull that release cable, your engine is off! Start by doing glide approaches on idle till you're accurate enough, then switch it off, you'll find it's very similar, just quiet and in 'some' cases you'll get better performance. Build up the confidence levels a bit. Just a few of my thoughts. Please note I'm no instructor, so read at your own risk! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I feel sorry for pilots who have never dead sticked. It's a valuable aspect of any solid training. Believe me, the first time you can read the serial numbers On the back of a stopped prop, you want your chief sitting next to you. Pilots who teach themselves to deliberately shut down their engine in flight are taught by a fool... Don't do it!... Having said that, I agree with Motz. Under controlled conditions, with an experienced/qualified instructor, in an aircraft that is designed/rated for it, e.g. a motor glider, it is a valuable experience. But please Folks, don't do it "just for kicks"... Throwing away one's option to go around, under normal circumstances, in a normal airplane, is not smart. Nor is it "acceptable risk management"... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Inflight restarts can be fraught... In RA Aus they are not normal operations, and I'm told that should it occur, an incident report is required... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Pilots who teach themselves to deliberately shut down their engine in flight are taught by a fool... Don't do it!...Having said that, I agree with Motz. Under controlled conditions, with an experienced/qualified instructor, in an aircraft that is designed/rated for it, e.g. a motor glider, it is a valuable experience. But please Folks, don't do it "just for kicks"... Throwing away one's option to go around, under normal circumstances, in a normal airplane, is not smart. Nor is it "acceptable risk management"... Wise words. It's not that you might or might not do a good landing. The issue is that you have taken an activity which already has some risk, and unnecessarily added to that risk. To compare with gliders is dangerously misleading; they are designed for engineless flight. For a start the glide ratio and lift factor are totally different, then the approach is different as well, then, if you get sink in a glider you can use that massive lift to get yourself out of trouble, whereas with the poor lift characteristics of a powered aircraft hitting windshear you're going SPLAT on the the deck. Having the power pulled on you when you least expect it takes care of the surprise factor, and you still have a job of work to do if the instructor has chosen his point thoughtfully, but you can still use power to correct a mistake rather than bend the aircraft, and you can still escape from windshear. So Scooby I think your instincts were correct, and in this case the airfield location is interesting. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 So Scooby I think your instincts were correct, and in this case the airfield location is interesting. Have I missed something? Why is the airfield location interesting in this case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I think there may be some confusion. If your chief stops the fan, he is not teaching you how to do it. It's not training on how to shut the engine down. He is showing you what the aeroplane feel, looks and sounds like with the prop stopped. I agree with sentiments that fan stopping for kicks is a silly thing, the rules are quite clear on this. Only a CFi, in the cct under good conditions can do it. It's not a thing to do to scare your mate. There are Many benefits to be gained by fanstops. The greatest (IMHO) is the confidence gained by the student when he realizes he can still put the aeroplane on a dime with no engine. And after having it dome once, it's miraculous that the student suddenly never let's the aeroplane get outside of gliding distance to a third of the way into the runway.. The restart technique while flying is another important training point. Especially if the prop has stopped windmilling. There are a few more tricks pilots learn aswel, such as using the starter motor to move the prop out of the way if it's blocking your vision. I could go on, but I won't. The fact is it's a legal maneuver with huge benefits, and and bread and butter for any instructor. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 There are Many benefits to be gained by fanstops. The greatest (IMHO) is the confidence gained by the student when he realizes he can still put the aeroplane on a dime with no engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Geez, I can't put it on a dime WITH an engine Motz! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Geez, I can't put it on a dime WITH an engine Motz! Don't worry Turbz. You'll find it's easier to do when the tail wheel is in the right place. I almost promise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Geez, I can't put it on a dime WITH an engine Motz! Come and visit tubz ;) we will paint a 5 meter box on the runway... If you can't put it in the box after an hours training, I'll pay for the flight :) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Wayne, you mean the right wheel isn't the tail wheel? Motz, I think I could manage to be sloppy enough to take advantage of that agreement! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 I fully agree that engine-out landings should be part of our regular training. I have it on good authority that glide performance with prop stopped can be quite different to an idling engine. That is, you can lose height faster than expected! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 High drag, steep approach aircraft may be different, so let's talk approach angle of a slippery aircraft like a Jab. I went for 30 years without ever experiencing wind shear, then copped two in a row on short final where the aircraft dropped maybe 50 feet and both times was saved by application of full power, once by the instructor, because I was asleep. How would you solve that problem with no power? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne T Mathews Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 High drag, steep approach aircraft may be different, so let's talk approach angle of a slippery aircraft like a Jab.I went for 30 years without ever experiencing wind shear, then copped two in a row on short final where the aircraft dropped maybe 50 feet and both times was saved by application of full power, once by the instructor, because I was asleep. How would you solve that problem with no power? With a check cheque book? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpoint 246niner Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Come and visit tubz ;) we will paint a 5 meter box on the runway... If you can't put it in the box after an hours training, I'll pay for the flight :) I'll match that offer too! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Good answer. I think the sequence in GA training is "Engine restart in flight":, and I think I received my single lesson it it after a clearing turn at 3000 feet, but that was a long time ago, but we certainly didn't incur the extra exposure by taking it all the way to a landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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