oracle1 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 There will probably be a number of parallel investigations that will be conducted regarding this event. The investigation by his employer has resulted in his dismissal. The ATSB's investigation may result in charges being laid within its mandate. CASA may investigate and may revoke his license under its powers. The Queensland police may investigate and may charge the pilot under the criminal code for drug offences. One thing is certain, his career is over. I think it is very sad for the pilot and a tragic waste of a promising career. Drug abuse is a medical problem that should be treated. Biggles I tend to agree that it would not a be a pretty sight me and you on the village green but it is unlikely that we are all going to be subjected to it. I also agree that this thread is beginning to look like vultures picking over the pilots corpse. It is now time to await the results and learn from them. perhaps its time to lock this thread? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 In all of this I have presented another possibility as an alternative. If you find this not to your liking, pick on the points I make. Don't get personal and don't insult people for the fact that they have a different view to you. I have nothing to gain either way, but I'm proud to have saved a few pilots there jobs and reputations. If there is any doubt as to the fairness of the process that means that a bit of extra effort should be expended. IF the pilot admitted to taking drugs then he is supposed to be offered being put on a programme. . I don't make assumptions and don't wish to condone pilots flying with drugs in their system and have never inferred such. I don't presume to convince everybody and if some don't want to have anything to do with me as a result of what I have said here, That seems a pity because it would suggest that only one point of view is acceptable so discussion is not possible. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Wow. The individual thing may not tell a clear story, but add them up and put them together, they most emphatically do. But hey, let's all be that naive. It must be great. With that sort of attitude, everything is just coincidence and journalistic spin. As I said earlier, I am not suggesting that he's not guilty, just that I would like more information before I make up my mind on what sort of person the pilot is. Being in the industry, I am aware of how the drug testing is carried out, and that obviously there is an issue. That said, I have known people that have returned multiple positive tests, due to medication (yes the testers were informed), and still resulted in hysteria (although local). Objectivity is a quality lacking in our journalism, unless it's about a journalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Way to go, FH. I wasn't saying that only one point of view was acceptable. I was arguing against naivity, and the notion of innocence you guys put forth, while simultaneously arguing against the monochrome worldview that journos are either good or bad, not to mention the attitude that since we can't know it all, then nothing can be known. Whether or not you have saved the reputation of anyone has no bearing whatsoever on you being right or wrong. I think that with the additional facts Oracle1 laid on the table, the discussion is over. P.S. At no time did I think you were condoning drug use, and I sure as hell hope I didn't imply that anywhere? In any case, don't worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 As I said earlier, I am not suggesting that he's not guilty, just that I would like more information before I make up my mind on what sort of person the pilot is. Being in the industry, I am aware of how the drug testing is carried out, and that obviously there is an issue. That said, I have known people that have returned multiple positive tests, due to medication (yes the testers were informed), and still resulted in hysteria (although local).Objectivity is a quality lacking in our journalism, unless it's about a journalist. What are you on about? Objectively he was fired after testing positive for drugs, after the ATC lost contact with the plane, after they altered the altitude, and after a fortnight where the RFDS conducted their own investigation. Sorry, but making a conclusion on those facts are not being biased as you imply with your "objective" statement. If you think "objectivity" is about catering to your personal beliefs and/or naivity, you have a lot to learn about journalism and objectivity. It reminds me of those Middle East countries where democracy has recently been introduced, and when the people who voted for the losing parties were asked what they thought about the election, quite a lot of them went "Pshh! Democracy doesn't work. The people I voted for didn't get elected!". I don't care how much involved in "the industry" you are. If the bloke is on so much medication that he falls asleep on the job, then he should have never got into the plane. Seriously, some things are just stupid, but when they involve the lives of others, they become dangerous. I couldn't care less if he was a druggie, if he only pushed papers. I seriously couldn't. But he didn't. He flew other people around for a living and as such was directly responsible for their lives. What the hell would have happened if they weren't on autopilot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Over 20 years of dealing with these sorts of things and you think I'm naive? Have you ever almost dropped off in a car. You haven't listened to one word about fatigue and roster practices for this kind of operation. Perhaps they should be two pilot ops . When fatigue gets you you go out like a light with no warning. You can be at a busy stage of flight and you just drop off. Any how since you are not listening I will discontinue . Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Over 20 years of dealing with these sorts of things and you think I'm naive? Have you ever almost dropped off in a car. You haven't listened to one word about fatigue and roster practices for this kind of operation. Perhaps they should be two pilot ops . When fatigue gets you you go out like a light with no warning. You can be at a busy stage of flight and you just drop off. Any how since you are not listening I will discontinue . Nev Boohoo. That would all be fine and well if he hadn't tested positive for drugs. Which he did. So, no I'm not listening to willful ignorance and entrenched naivity, nor apologetics where facts are ignored to make your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Charming.Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Charming.Nev I have no intention of charming you, so I consider that a job well done, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Your posts are pretty ordinary. That's what I am referring to. We should be able to express opinions whatever they are without being personally insulted. Have you been trained on Pprune? Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Your posts are pretty ordinary. That's what I am referring to. We should be able to express opinions whatever they are without being personally insulted. Have you been trained on Pprune? Nev I began arguing my case, as did you guys and it devolved into this because we disagree. I think you're ignoring the facts, and you think that I'm reading things into the facts. And, frankly, you're hardly in a position to claim innocence in the insult-department, although you're not as bad as the Mozartmerv character. Edit: Who cares if my posts are "ordinary"? I'm not writing a thesis or a hard-hitting news piece, nor making a documentary. Talk about irrelevant insults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greybeard Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 After reading some of the posts in this thread ( and other recent threads ) I'm just wondering if some of you guys might be better off stepping away from the computer and just going for a fly. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 That's exactly what I did. Just did a few lessons with some good people . I feel so much better . :) The thing is there will always be wankers in any crowd an we just have to deal with it. The forum is a place for discussion, and as such people's opinions should be respected. Insulting airline pilots, commercial pilots, instructors and medical professionals when discussing a subject that these people have more than a passing understanding of, will only serve to make the insulter look more the fool. But worse, will only remove credibility from the point of view he or she is trying to get across.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 That's exactly what I did. Just did a few lessons with some good people . I feel so much better . :)The thing is there will always be wankers in any crowd an we just have to deal with it. The forum is a place for discussion, and as such people's opinions should be respected. Insulting airline pilots, commercial pilots, instructors and medical professionals when discussing a subject that these people have more than a passing understanding of, will only serve to make the insulter look more the fool. But worse, will only remove credibility from the point of view he or she is trying to get across.. I'm sorry, but coming up with apologetics to make it seem like that it's a big conspiracy against a pilot and accusing people of being racist and homophobes in the process shows exactly how entrenched and blind you are, simply because the person in question is a pilot. You are the very last person here to cry about insults, with your outrageous accusations and passive-aggressive behaviour. As for your professionalism: Your behaviour truly shows just where your loyalties lie: It's certainly not in the realm of reality or in the interest of safety. There seems to no low which you won't stoop to, in order to make it seem as if the pilot is a victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 You don't know Motz obviously. He may feel disinclined to respond on his own behalf and I won't do it very well, but he IS a good instructor who has safety and good standards as part of his profile. He is a really decent person who helps others. He does have a straightforward way of making his point, but we are all different personalities. It seems easy on line to read more of a personal nature in some comments. Bear in mind that a lot of people read these forums and responses may be directed at a much wider audience than just those who have contributed to the particular thread. If we have to qualify everything to the N'th degree it becomes too ponderous . By and large we make it work here. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 You don't know Motz obviously. He may feel disinclined to respond on his own behalf and I won't do it very well, but he IS a good instructor who has safety and good standards as part of his profile. Well, that's not what he has shown here. On the contrary, his misplaced loyalty to a pilot who fell asleep (at the very least) while transporting patients and crew as well as testing positive for meth shows that his loyalty is with a pilot, regardless of the facts. He has, as has you, shown that time and time again in this thread. He is a really decent person who helps others. Who cares? How is that pertinent to this discussion? It doesn't matter how good a person is - that doesn't make him exempt from being wrong. However, I'd say that his intellectual dishonesty where he accuses people not agreeing with him of being racists and homophobes doesn't land him on my list of "decent people". But what do I care, I'm not having coffee with him, and it has no bearing on this discussion. He does have a straightforward way of making his point, but we are all different personalities. Erm, yeah. And so what? Other people can't be straightforward? You think being straightforward is somehow foreign to me? It seems easy on line to read more of a personal nature in some comments. Bear in mind that a lot of people read these forums and responses may be directed at a much wider audience than just those who have contributed to the particular thread. I know. I use the internet not only for pleasure, but for work, on a daily basis. If we have to qualify everything to the N'th degree it becomes too ponderous . By and large we make it work here. Nev Oh, alright. I thought it was you guys who was arguing that the pilot in question was innocent until proven guilty (i.e. in a court of law), and did your utmost to disregard the facts, since he wasn't proven guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 That's exactly what I did. Just did a few lessons with some good people . I feel so much better . :)The thing is there will always be wankers in any crowd an we just have to deal with it. The forum is a place for discussion, and as such people's opinions should be respected. Insulting airline pilots, commercial pilots, instructors and medical professionals when discussing a subject that these people have more than a passing understanding of, will only serve to make the insulter look more the fool. But worse, will only remove credibility from the point of view he or she is trying to get across.. OK fellas , take the gloves off and retreat to your respective corners . We all share a common interest in aviation and that is what bonds us . These forums provide access to many talented individuals ,who contribute their time and knowledge for the benefit of others , whether that be in pilot training , airspace regs or just general guidence about all things related to aviation ,but as individuals we often have differing opinions about what's right and wrong . I'm sure most of us have experienced that frustration , when others may have an opinion different to you , which you 'know' to be the 'correct'.one . As I indicated in post #75 it is time to let due process take it's course , and get back to things that we due better. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Wow . Thanx nev, I'm humbled mate . Truly. Anyway, I'm bowing out. I've been insulted enough today, but its all made better by the respect I get shown by other members an students I've flown with today.. I am reminded of the statement ( not sure who it was) " men care not what the mice think of them" Cheers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM397 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Wow . Thanx nev, I'm humbled mate . Truly.Anyway, I'm bowing out. I've been insulted enough today, but its all made better by the respect I get shown by other members an students I've flown with today.. I am reminded of the statement ( not sure who it was) " men care not what the mice think of them" Cheers Ah, but enough to accuse the "mice" of outrageous things to defend your position. Right, you're the better person ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 How about you mob agree to disagree and move on, otherwise the thread gets locked and a clean up session begins. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Do it lox.. There's nothing decent worth keeping here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Do it lox.. There's nothing decent worth keeping here. Too the contrary Motz, there is a lot worth keeping IMHO. This topic is improving awareness of the effects of fatigue, a need for dynamic risk assessment and compliance with DAMPS, among other things, any of which could bite us as recreational flyers. Just need to keep the badge bashing down to a dull roar 'tis all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 True. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgmwa Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Too the contrary Motz, there is a lot worth keeping IMHO. This topic is improving awareness of the effects of fatigue, a need for dynamic risk assessment and compliance with DAMPS, among other things, any of which could bite us as recreational flyers.Just need to keep the badge bashing down to a dull roar 'tis all. I agree. How do you blokes expect me to concentrate with all that noise going on. rgmwa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howard Hughes Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Given that the RFDS are governed by the same HR legislation that every other company and organisation works under, I would be very surprise if they hadn't "dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's" prior to his dismissal. Furthermore a mature safety system will ask all the relevant questions regarding rostering practices, etc... By the way I have done a lot of research into fatigue management recently and with modern thinking, 'rostering pratices' are only a very small part of the equation. These days the onus falls more on the employee to ensure that if rostered for a sufficient 'rest period', that he/she uses that 'rest period' to actually rest. If the employee is unable to gain sufficient rest during the period, the onus is still on them to advise the employer. At that point it becomes the employers responsibilty to provide alternative crewing arrangements for the flight. The other big problem they face (given the type of work the RFDS do), seems to be a misguided idea that people should show up for work even when a little sick, nothing could be further from the truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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