jwn57030 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 The path from sport pilot to GA is lesser, none of the BS about GA schools not acknowledging hours spent flying ultralights. So no duplication is certification for instructors. That is generally true but there is one small rule that you have to be aware of in america. We have CFI and CFI-Sport. If you take your lessons from a CFI-Sport none of the hours you get can count towards a private license. Then you would have to redo all the hours. I was sure to take my lessons from a CFI so all my hours count towards a private license. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I agree with your assessment, but I found that judging the quality of the instruction is very difficult for a student. While it is very important, it is also too difficult.dodo I very much agree with this. The guy with the big smile on his face that slaps you on the back when you enter his school would make it seem like a great business on first impressions. Especially when you look over at the old guy sitting behind his run-down desk in the back of the hanger at the school next door. It's not until your quite a way into the training that you realise that the 250-hour Grade 3 Instructors (who've been trained primarily by 250-hour Grade 3 instructors themselves) that have done the majority of your training in the shiny-man school may not actually have the same level of knowledge to pass on and attention to safety that the 30,000-hour old guy who has been sitting behind his desk next door for the last 20 years might have. It's a tough industry where what you see is quite often not what you get. The best way I feel is to "hang around" a couple of schools/clubs for a while. Talk to the instructors, join the club, talk to past students to see how they were treated. Try to ascertain the attitude of the business owner and the CFI to safety and maintenance issues. Even good old Google might give you some indication (taken with a tablespoon of salt of course). 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGL Fox Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Maybe we should commit to paying our instructors more than $20 t0 $30 an hour for, in some cases, much less than 1000 hours per year (but they still have to hang around to turn out the lights at the end of the day) - most of us earn much more than that yet our instructors are highly skilled and live dangerous lives. I would think that the majority of instructors would get more than $30 an hour if it is their primary job, the whole point of this thread is to determine if the cost of training RA-Aus is getting beyond the budget of the normal person that wants to fly for recreation purposes only, the money that is used is generally from disposable income and from what I have seen written here there are some very reasonable rates and then there are some much high rates. I think the owners of these flying schools have to bear in mind that we as recreational students/pilots have limited funds for our fun and have to be very careful not to raise their prices as to make the cost of training to high because like all businesses if you have no customers you have no income. I think if they feel that they need to increase a CFI and or their instructors pay, fine do that, but maybe they will need to look at other cost saving measures EG: cheaper aircraft to buy and maintain, try and find cheaper hangerage, insurance savings and the list goes on. I mean most of here don't have to fly to keep food in our mouths and our families mouths and if it gets to expensive the flying will probably be one of the first things that will be dropped (those of us that are married you know that it will probably not be our idea ) which is not good for me the student or the flying school. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 This all sounds very simply like the whole "quantity versus quality" argument to me. Those arguing for lower costs keep talking about reducing the maintenance expenses, paying instructors less and using cheaper aircraft. Each one of those things are going to decrease the quality of the training provided - not to mention the safety issues! There is a minimum safe cost of operating a flying school and I think the vast majority of RA-Aus schools are currently run at or slightly above this cost. It's worth noting that the more expensive ones are often being run by a "businessman" with a clear view of an established profit margin. This motive sits outside of the vast majority of RA-Aus schools which are run to pay the bills and because it really is such a damn cool job. Aviation is not an expensive undertaking. I was recently talking to a client who was spending $6000 a year for her childs sport - the sport was swimming! I rent an aircraft for a few hours each month and don't even pay that much!!!! Compare our sport to any other sport and it will soon amaze you how cheap it is. I know of bushwalkers who would easily spend $6000 per year on travelling, accommodation and gear. I've got mates who are builders who throw away $100 every Friday night at the pub and the pokies. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGL Fox Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 68 Volksy, Not once did I say I say reduce instructors pay, what I did say is like any other business, if your overheads increase try and look at other ways to maintain your costs without having to pass them on to your students and maybe instead of a 130K aircraft to train in maybe look at aircraft that are cheaper to buy which would be cheaper to lease etc so tha maybe you could offer something cheaper to students that don't have a bank roll to spend. I don't have to train in a Texan when I can just as easily and safely train in a Savannah, that's all I was saying. We all want goood training and safe aircraft and that does cost but I don't think we need the top shelf aircraft etc to do that in.. do we? I too have have mates that spend $100 or more on a Friday night on grog and pokies but at least they do have a win from time to time and that is what keeps them coming back... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Volksy, I was talking about Goulburn and the "hidden charge" that inflates the price is briefing which is charged out separately. First time that I have heard of this one, but then....? Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Its interesting how the hourly cost of RAA training has catching up to GA. I wonder what effect on growth that will have. There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the rag and tube flying any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGL Fox Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 Exactly my thinking FT, the cost of GA only 5 or 6 years ago when I looked at it was way to expensive for me and that's why RA-Aus was so appealing, this is my concern now if spiralling costs start to turn people away for flying. It's been said before here that recreational flying should be a cheaper option, cheaper aircraft etc, maybe we are going to far away now from out roots and what we set out to do, to make flying afforldable for everyone... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I ended up paying closer to $5000 for my sport license. 20 hours is the minimum requirement not the average. The average is somewhere between 30-40 hours to be proficient enough to pass the practical tests. For comparison of hourly rates though it still sounds like I am still paying much less. I paid $40/hr(US) for the instructor plus $115/hr(US) wet for plane rental. The instructor costs do go up more when your getting a private license, multiengine, instrument.I also didn't see anyone mention the extra costs like books $100, charts and supplies $150, ground school $300, a headset $300, written test $150, and practical test $450. I got my Certificate in as much time and money as it took my CFI to be 100% happy with my flying to the point where he'd let me go anytime, by myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Volksy, I was talking about Goulburn and the "hidden charge" that inflates the price is briefing which is charged out separately. First time that I have heard of this one, but then....? Don Apologies Don. It must be the other school at Goulburn then - where I fly (Goulburn Aviation) does not charge for briefings. Not sure how the other school justifies charging - all my briefings were no longer than 10 minutes on the ground with further explanations whilst taxiing or whilst flying. I've trained with 3 different instructors whilst i've been there (been stopping and starting a bit too often over the years!) and they've always taken as much time (and drank as much tea) as possible with me to make sure I grasp concepts fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdarby Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't think the hourly costs have caught up, as GA is more expensive too. I was paying $215 duel and $165 solo. The GA school on the same field was $290 solo and $340 duel. It's not apples and apples as a 172 costs more than something with a Rotax engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 If you have a 2% increase in costs and a 2% decrease in customers you are starting to look @ a decent jump of 4% in cost to your customers. Do that 5 years in a row and your cheap hobby is no longer so cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Exactly my thinking FT, the cost of GA only 5 or 6 years ago when I looked at it was way to expensive for me and that's why RA-Aus was so appealing, this is my concern now if spiralling costs start to turn people away for flying. It's been said before here that recreational flying should be a cheaper option, cheaper aircraft etc, maybe we are going to far away now from out roots and what we set out to do, to make flying afforldable for everyone... The cost of maintaining an RA-Aus aircraft is really no different to the cost of maintaining a GA aircraft if you're paying someone else to do the work. Also need to factor in depreciation on RA-Aus aircraft which many schools are only just figuring out. The GA aircraft used in most schools do not depreciate. RA-Aus aircraft also do not stand up to the beating of flying school use that the older GA aircraft can. If you could spend $60k on an RA-Aus aircraft (what a half-decent Warrior costs) and expect it to last 15-20 years and 20,000 hours then it would be great but there's not a single RA-Aus aircraft i've ever seen that would take that beating... I still maintain it's an inexpensive hobby but keep in mind that RA-Aus is really setup for owner-flyers. My view is that people should stump up the funds to get their licence with a reputable school then go and grab themselves an X-Air kit or find a couple of mates to throw in and you're flying for $40 an hour. That's the beauty of RA-Aus and what it was all about in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The RAA is its now orientated to supporting flying schools and not clubs or owner/fliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 If GA student pilots were taught how to land properly & not drop or slam the aircraft down onto the runway. The LSA type aircraft would last longer in the GA world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Flying school owners have to decide on a aircraft that will appeal to the masses. We would all love for our local flying school to have TW & Rag & Tube type aircraft for training & hire. But their earning potential isn't as great as a say a Jabiru, Tecnam,Foxbat, Sportstar Etc. They are cheaper to buy, but unfortunately not many people like to train/hire TW aircraft or Drifter types anymore. If they did, we would still have them availiable for training & hire at a lower cost per hour. (Well a little bit lower price per hour). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't understand why you wouldn't want to learn in a Drifter??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't understand why you wouldn't want to learn in a Drifter??? I learnt in a drifter for the first 14 hours including a few hours solo.Then finished of my AUF cert in a Jabiru LSA55.But that was back then,when the only real choices were the Drifter or the Thruster. Jabiru were just starting out then. I think these days the majority of students dont want to as much. Which is ashame really. PS- But if somebody is interested in Drifter flying, SE Qld would be a good place to start. A few schools still have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Only thing I can think of is the old guys that got into the sport in 2000-2010 don't feel safe in an open cockpit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I was down at Moruya one day when a nurse who was training in the Gazelle turned up. I was looking over a Thruster and remarked to her that the Thruster was a great aircraft. She replied with a horrified expression that she had far more respect for her life than to fly in that thing! Perception is most of the problem with the great old ultralights. Don. PS. Could a moderator do something about the spelling error in the title of this thread, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Didn't take her up then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGL Fox Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 Could a moderator do something about the spelling error in the title of this thread, please. I went to a state school Methusala, what have I speeltt wong in the title? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I was down at Moruya one day when a nurse who was training in the Gazelle turned up. I was looking over a Thruster and remarked to her that the Thruster was a great aircraft. She replied with a horrified expression that she had far more respect for her life than to fly in that thing! Perception is most of the problem with the great old ultralights. Don. PS. Could a moderator do something about the spelling error in the title of this thread, please. When I first read the thread heading, the first thing that came to my mind was two student pilots standing back to back with a Flintlock pistol in each of their hands ready to walk off for 10 steps the turn around & try and shoot each other. (Thread title spelling now fixed - Admin) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't understand why you wouldn't want to learn in a Drifter??? I love flying in the Drifter, at times it's been hard to find one on line. They do teach you some good handing skills, also, hard to beat on a summer morning (or at any time really). Maybe I just like them for the same reason I like motorcycles, a bit of wind in your face and not much around you. I think that some of the enclosed cockpit people deceive themselves into thinking it offers more protection if they bingle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Drifters are fantastic, undercarriage check is the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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