Problems

[Downunder]

Massively off topic now ......but...... we have a bloke thinking along the same lines AVOCET http://hutt-river-province.com/

 

 

[cherk]

[ATTACH=full]22631[/ATTACH]

nice to see the GREEN around there Mike,...never seen it like that before................nice!

 

 

[coljones]

This kind of knee jerk reaction just pisses me off to the extreme.

David, It is all about duty of car and informed consent. The younger the passenger the greater the need for (and duty of) care and the younger the passenger the harder it is for them to give informed consent.

Guns, planes, drugs, sex, rock and roll and a whole range of activities should be viewed through that lens.

 

EDIT Maybe the carriage of kids should be subjected to a strong "would I fly with this person" test - administered independently of the pilot.

 

 

[David Isaac]

David, It is all about duty of car and informed consent. The younger the passenger the greater the need for (and duty of) care and the younger the passenger the harder it is for them to give informed consent.Guns, planes, drugs, sex, rock and roll and a whole range of activities should be viewed through that lens.

 

EDIT Maybe the carriage of kids should be subjected to a strong "would I fly with this person" test - administered independently of the pilot.

Problem is Col, we don't typically kill kids in planes so what the hell are we on about, more kids die from neglect ... maybe we should forbid procreation unless you can prove yourself worthy and informed ....

 

 

[coljones]

... maybe we should forbid procreation unless you can prove yourself worthy and informed ....

Yes!!!

[turboplanner]

The Coroner's primary function is to find the cause of death, and try to prevent the same thing happening again.

 

If you follow this Coroner's logic to the end, we would all be staying at home, and clearly that's not going to happen.

 

Clearly that's not practical or logical - is the next step he can't take his wife if she's killed, would be wan taking engineers if two engineers were killed on a charter flight.

 

A Coroner is only human and has generic skills, with legal skills. He/she is not an aviation expert.

 

If there has been negligence here then the lawsuits should be the leveller.

 

I think you've had a glimpse of where this prescriptive "dangerous activity" could take us - into the banned corner, and flying $300,000 172's.

 

 

[ozbear]

AMEN. Having read the Coroner's report, I agree the recommendation is nonsensical. It was death by stupidity, aided by weather, as far as I can see. I don't see that the airworthiness of the aircraft had anything to do with it. Evolution in action, so to speak. Pity about the child - but face it, people kill their kids in cars every day of the week - so why is this one getting such a stupid over-reaction? However, the message is obvious: The consequences of the precedent that flying in a recreational aircraft is an inherently dangerous activity will have far-reaching adverse consequences. When it gets to the point where driving your kids to the beach is classified as a "dangerous recreational activity" I suppose reductio ad absurdum will prevail. FFS, Breathing is inherently dangerous, and inevitably fatal in the long run (tho I suppose not a recreational or optional activity). I think the licencing standards for Coroners are in need of review . . .

Dayfydd I don't think this guy was an idiot I think many things conspired to cause this tragedy the weather and high stall speed of the aircraft being the main culprits the one thing he should have done was not had his son in with him the aircraft was not certified to carry him so making more laws wont change the fact that people don't do the right thing.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Dayfydd I don't think this guy was an idiot I think many things conspired to cause this tragedy the weather and high stall speed of the aircraft being the main culprits the one thing he should have done was not had his son in with him the aircraft was not certified to carry him so making more laws wont change the fact that people don't do the right thing.

I think we're wandering away from the main topic again. I'll just observe that whilst he did a number of things that were contrary to the regulations - any one of which would have prevented the accident - the main issue to my mind was that he planned a VFR flight on a track that provides almost zero alternate landing sites, to arrive after last light. In other words, he left himself no escape options. I've flown out of Mildura - it's all bluebush to the north, no place whatever to land a Glassair. That's idiotic in my book. Enough on this topic.

 

The issue it exposes so very clearly is what Turbo has pointed out - the precedent set by "Dangerous Recreational Activity" in the Goulburn glider case (and an earlier case involving a training accident in a Jabiru) is very likely to prove more dangerous than its benefit is worth.

 

The Carol Smith case against RAAus and CASA has, I am told, settled. So Andy need not be quite so twitchy about allusions to it. I do not know whether the importer will escape from S83A of the Crimes Act due to Statute of Limitations; but I hope both RAAus and CASA are thinking about it.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Dafydd

 

I too had heard that, but as a normal member I guess we'll be told that at some point shortly.......but I wont hold my breath.

 

But in any event this thread is about the current problems RAAus has and whether it will or wont survive these. If people want to discuss the historical actions of people as they relate to the Sting accident then perhaps they can start a new thread and post there.

 

Andy

 

BTW, before posting anything to this or anyother thread it would surely be a prudent CYA to check and see if this rumour has any basis or not before potentially putting your self out there for some slappin if the rumour turns out to be wrong.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

DafyddI too had heard that, but as a normal member I guess we'll be told that at some point shortly.......but I wont hold my breath.

 

But in any event this thread is about the current problems RAAus has and whether it will or wont survive these. If people want to discuss the historical actions of people as they relate to the Sting accident then perhaps they can start a new thread and post there.

 

Andy

 

BTW, before posting anything to this or anyother thread it would surely be a prudent CYA to check and see if this rumour has any basis or not before potentially putting your self out there for some slappin if the rumour turns out to be wrong.

Agreed - that's why I did check.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Agreed - that's why I did check.

The point about S83A of the Crimes Act is, I would suggest, relevant to the current situation inasmuch as if an action under it is started against an importer, it will be impossible to progress a civic action against that importer. No doubt Kaz can enlarge.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Agreed - that's why I did check.

What did you use as your definitive source? There were 3 parties and Im guessing the two organisatiosn involved wont break any land speed records in advising anyone. I pressume (guess) that as there is no outcomes reported in the usual legal databases then if it is a true rumour, that it must have been settled. Usually if that is so there are non disclosure aspects so wonder how we can find out?

 

Andy

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

What did you use as your definitive source? There were 3 parties and Im guessing the two organisatiosn involved wont break any land speed records in advising anyone. I pressume (guess) that as there is no outcomes reported in the usual legal databases then if it is a true rumour, that it must have been settled. Usually if that is so there are non disclosure aspects so wonder how we can find out?Andy

Your problem, pal. However, you'll find I am right.

 

 

[David Isaac]

What did you use as your definitive source? There were 3 parties and Im guessing the two organisatiosn involved wont break any land speed records in advising anyone. I pressume (guess) that as there is no outcomes reported in the usual legal databases then if it is a true rumour, that it must have been settled. Usually if that is so there are non disclosure aspects so wonder how we can find out?Andy

Andy, only the terms of settlement are 'confidential between the parties'. The settlement itself is not confidential and as members we have a right to know. A call to the RA Aus office should be able to provide the advice.

 

 

[REastwood]

With all this doom and gloom, I might give up flying and take up knitting.

Are you sure?... http://knitting.about.com/od/knittingsafety/a/knittingrsi.htm

Or can you imagine this...

 

"43 Year old seriously injured during knitting accident. Today a man was left with serious eye injuries whilst taking part in the "Dangerous Recreational Activity" of knitting. The needles, which did not meet current regulations, have been seized by KASA (Knitting And Sewing Authority) and are awaiting a Coroners report. It is unclear at this time what exactly happened but a witness declared, "he was knitting close to last light and it looked like he was holding the needles incorrectly!". Authorities will be looking into training methods for recreational knitters."

 

 

[Oscar]

Are you sure?... http://knitting.about.com/od/knittingsafety/a/knittingrsi.htmOr can you imagine this...

 

"43 Year old seriously injured during knitting accident. Today a man was left with serious eye injuries whilst taking part in the "Dangerous Recreational Activity" of knitting. The needles, which did not meet current regulations, have been seized by KASA (Knitting And Sewing Authority) and are awaiting a Coroners report. It is unclear at this time what exactly happened but a witness declared, "he was knitting close to last light and it looked like he was holding the needles incorrectly!". Authorities will be looking into training methods for recreational knitters."

Along with new legislation that precludes occupancy of any room in which knitting is taking place by any person deemed legally incompetent to recognise the risk.

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Organising a collective voice amongst 10,000 individuals is a hell of a lot harder than having a lobby group that does it for you. That's why lobby groups exist...

All right, looks as though we share a common view of this Coroner's recommendation that persons under 17 be banned from riding in experiental (read across to "dangerous recreational activity") aircraft. So, Airsick, here's a job for your lobby group - see if you can stir them up to make a useful complaint to the State Ombudsman about this recommendation. Let's see if it works, eh?

 

 

[David Isaac]

I spose we could just get rid of lawyers,( now where have I heard that before) ?

No ... No ... Not Kaz .... her blood is worth bottling.

You leave our Kaz alone OK.

 

 

[AVOCET]

No ... No ... Not Kaz .... her blood is worth bottling.You leave our Kaz alone OK.

I offered her a job to help me succeed from the nation ! Then we make our own version

 

of air activity. (HUH) ??

 

 

[AlfaRomeo]

When CASA absorbs Recreational Aviation into their empire in the first half of 2014, RA-Aus can roll its assets into AOPA before the ambulance chasers can get their hands on them. The shell of RA-Aus can then be wound-up.

 

To get their hands on the substantial assets of the soon to be defunct RA-Aus, AOPA would have to agree to establish a Recreational Aviation Chapter and allow the assets from the former RA-Aus to be used only in connection with that chapter. That chapter could specialise in advocating for Recreational Aviation and put together deals for members on insurance, fuel, tyres and similar.

 

Too easy!

 

 

[metalman]

When CASA absorbs Recreational Aviation into their empire in the first half of 2014, RA-Aus can roll its assets into AOPA before the ambulance chasers can get their hands on them. The shell of RA-Aus can then be wound-up. To get their hands on the substantial assets of the soon to be defunct RA-Aus, AOPA would have to agree to establish a Recreational Aviation Chapter and allow the assets from the former RA-Aus to be used only in connection with that chapter. That chapter could specialise in advocating for Recreational Aviation and put together deals for members on insurance, fuel, tyres and similar.

Too easy!

Although it has its own issues ,what's wrong with RAA ending up back in the SAAA, that's where it started and although there are always problems in any organisation at least the SAAA seems to be able to read the regs and stick to them. As a lobby group they're doing well for the experimental flyers and really I reckon we have more in common with them than AOPA ,the only dramas would be getting over very old grudges, having to learn the regs ( and not break them) and hopefully an influx of pilots wouldn't destroy what seems to be a strong organisation

Cheers Matty

 

 

[ozbear]

When CASA absorbs Recreational Aviation into their empire in the first half of 2014, RA-Aus can roll its assets into AOPA before the ambulance chasers can get their hands on them. The shell of RA-Aus can then be wound-up. To get their hands on the substantial assets of the soon to be defunct RA-Aus, AOPA would have to agree to establish a Recreational Aviation Chapter and allow the assets from the former RA-Aus to be used only in connection with that chapter. That chapter could specialise in advocating for Recreational Aviation and put together deals for members on insurance, fuel, tyres and similar.

Too easy!

I hope your joking

 

 

[Dafydd Llewellyn]

Although it has its own issues ,what's wrong with RAA ending up back in the SAAA, that's where it started and although there are always problems in any organisation at least the SAAA seems to be able to read the regs and stick to them. As a lobby group they're doing well for the experimental flyers and really I reckon we have more in common with them than AOPA ,the only dramas would be getting over very old grudges, having to learn the regs ( and not break them) and hopefully an influx of pilots wouldn't destroy what seems to be a strong organisationCheers Matty

Although George Markey was highly averse to SAAA back in '82, I doubt he's roll over in his grave at this concept. It would work.

 

 

[AVOCET]

Although it has its own issues ,what's wrong with RAA ending up back in the SAAA, that's where it started and although there are always problems in any organisation at least the SAAA seems to be able to read the regs and stick to them. As a lobby group they're doing well for the experimental flyers and really I reckon we have more in common with them than AOPA ,the only dramas would be getting over very old grudges, having to learn the regs ( and not break them) and hopefully an influx of pilots wouldn't destroy what seems to be a strong organisationCheers Matty

My 2 bobs worth :

 

I agree that that would be better than AOPA,

 

But , saaa doesn't administer licenses or rego (I think ?)(any one know for sure?),it's back to casa handling that aspect .

 

We would only be moving our problems and giving it to them ,

 

I wouldn't imagine them to be that interested ,and I think their are some old grudges ,but it's better than it was .

 

I for one have been a member for 3 years

 

Chapter 25 , great bunch

 

Only my thoughts

 

If this goes the way it seems to be going we will all end up their any way one way or another

 

 

[facthunter]

Why would you imagine that AOPA would be there to amalgamate with? It doesn't build planes train pilots administer anything certify anything. It's there to represent the views of pilots (including RAAus types) and make sure they get a fair go generally. Also educate pilots about changes of rules and provide discount services etc. How does that fit? I have been a member on and off for quite a while.

 

SAAA operates in an overlapping way, but it could not be assumed they would want to be part of RAAus ( especially at the moment). Long term close association with all recreational aviation organisations should be the aim as the collective voice is more powerful and UNITED we are all stronger..Nev