Russ Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Ok......x country endorsement requires understanding and proof of expertise before CFI signs you off.....fair enough. My "now thinkings" 2013........most, if not all pilots, have fallen in love with that little black thing called a GPS........to add more cream to this pie, we are going gar gar with ipads and oz runways. Never has it been so good. So..........the old tried and proven method ( maps/protractor etc etc).........is that now a thing of the past, infact no longer a prequisite to x country endorsement ??? Or is it GOING to be shelved..??????.......or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles5128 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 It would be a fool hardy pilot that doesn't keep his/her dead reckoning skills up to date despite all the modern technology... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Compulsion Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 You can't use electronic devices to do your Navs. You have to do all of your plots and calculations the old way. I love my iPad with OzRunways but what do you do when it fails if you can't navigate? My iPad has failed twice in flight in the past 10 months. I enjoy navigating both in the air and at sea. It is a skill that needs to be mastered and practiced. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWF Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 If you don't understand the principles of navigation and rely solely on your GPS, once you are out of the circuit you are just a passenger, the back box is the PIC. If it goes on the blink, you are LOST! DWF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tafisama Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Compulsion has said it very well.I feel it`s very important to learn the basics and have the skills.We can then use the electronic gadgets to see how we are progressing with our flights and if they fail,we quickly open our bags for our tools. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I'm a great believer in the circular slide rule - never needs batteries, oblivious to satellite locations,can calculate just about anything and fits in your top pocket. Before anyone gets to fly a nav - they need to be skilled with their Jeppy CR-2 or CR-3. Bouncing along and reading the whiz-wheel handbook is not the way to go. On the other hand, if it exists, and it aids your navigation -then I'm all for you learning it alongside your basic stuff. Everyone should know how to correctly setup a GPS, and install a plan. The same goes for iPad and OzRunways. happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 well well well..........grapevine just told me, the corridors of casa are taking note of "electronics" ( Ipads and the like ) seems possible changes are in the wind......let's see. personally, i enjoy the old method. ( the old BP / Shell roadmaps got me to many a place ) smirk smirk>>>>>>>> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Anyone flying cross country, needs to have dead reckoning skills. The old and proven method is not an outdated way of doing things, it is a necessary skill required, if and when the electronic devices fail. Frank. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herm Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 GPS hasn't worked for me, I've been lost most of my life. Need a trip to India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Just started reading "the killing zone", and am half way through a chapter on the electronic flight gadgets ,very interesting, so far pilots still seem to die from the same things regardless of how they navigate( although getting lost and using all ya fuel will get you into the fuel exhaustion category) , I have a couple of gadgets ,iPad and garmin, but never leave without a whizz wheel ,fuel calcs and charts on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lark Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Always found it gratifying to see a town/landmark come up right on the nose right where and when expected before the days of GPS. I am a fan of the new technology and it would seem silly not to use what you have available. However I do feel something is being lost from the sense of achievement side of things. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 I plan the old way, carry chatrs, mark up time and position on the charts and look at the ground to see where I am. I also carry a GPS and often set it to GOTO my destination. Even if I look at it I won't necessarily follow the GPS line, I wander off to more friendly country for an engine out. I learnt many years ago not to follow a line even the one on the map. I found myself with a lowering cloud ceiling, over really rugged terrain and thought, "Why am I over this rubbish, when 5 miles away the ground is 2000' lower" What i really like with GPS is the ability to radio an accurate location, any time and also an accurate ETA for anywhere around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 In aviation the old and not bold don't ever rely on a single "piece" of information that is critical without some form of verification. It's a version of not putting you eggs in the one basket. The Erebus DC-10 did that and ended badly. Altered track information and a "white out" and below approved sector altitude in IMC . Bad combination. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdarby Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 An iPad is not built to be used in the way we would use it, for hours on end with a large app running. So not all navigation devices are equal. There is a reason certified hardware costs so much more. I have had the iPad go wrong several times. I found a bug in OzRunways that the developers hadn't found yet. It's not fool proof. But I am a lot more reliable as I know myself and what I can do, and I plan and look at a map and have a great time planning, and I really get a good feeling when it all comes together and I arrive where I should be, using paper. It just doesn't feel like such an achievement using the iPad. Are we flying, grass roots style, or are we looking at electronic toys? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWF Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Do you realise that most of the posts on this thread currently form a significant part of the RAAus Safety Management System by undertaking part of the "Safety Promotion Function"? Keep up the good work! DWF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 Having the lines drawn on a map is essential preparation. You can do it digitally and probably a lot of pro's get it done that way. Some of the "gadgets" use overseas terminology which makes things difficult. You can apply the wind in the wrong sense too. The line on the map allows you to get off track "fixes". Some call them Pin points. Use things like the thickness of your finger which is about 10 NM on a WAC chart. and be close than get figures precisely wrong by making an error in your formula but having it to the second decimal place. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 And the best thing of all? Soon the iPad's will have an App that has a full auto-pilot function. Then you'll be able to mount another iPad right in front of you so you can watch movies while you fly and get rid of all that pesky turning, climbing, descending nonsense also and just sit back in a comfy chair and "really" enjoy the experience of flying! Won't that be great! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 volksy you will have the aeroplane equivalent of people walking along the street playing with their I phones and colliding with Telephone posts. Cruel and inhuman punishment.. Take an I phone off a kid. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sain Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 ahh, the dangers of being sarcastic (presumably): its not quite an ipad app, but ardupilot is pretty sweet: http://www.diydrones.com/ and http://plane.ardupilot.com/ For those who havn't seen it before - autopilot controllers for RC (and larger) aircraft.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lark Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 volksy you will have the aeroplane equivalent of people walking along the street playing with their I phones and colliding with Telephone posts. Cruel and inhuman punishment.. Take an I phone off a kid. Nev In all seriousness, I saw a young woman almost killed by a bus texting with earphones in crossing the road. The driver beeped the horn and flashed the lights. No response at all! I stared in horror along with others. Don't know how the driver missed her she was totally oblivious to the fact that she came within a couple of feet of dying! I wonder how many are not so lucky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 we recently came back from an overseas trip, one large city we strolled about was just a mass of moving folks all heading ???, every 2nd one was texting etc as they walked, lucy and i were weaving ducking to avoid collisions, we pulled up at a cafe to have a coffee etc, we watched this moving mass.....they avoided collisions by magic, it was amazing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Won`t be much longer and it`ll be like that here. Frank. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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