68volksy Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I know i'm probably getting a bit of a reputation as a grump around these parts and always having a go at RA-Aus but i must say the more i learn the more i'm utterly disappointed. In an attempt to assuage a level of despair that seems imminent i am hoping that someone can show me an example of where RA-Aus has taken enforcement action against an individual or organisation. I mean actually suspended/removed a pilot certificate or an individual or organisations training or maintenance approvals. It's all very well assuming that everyone on the planet will do the right thing and that's a lovely fantasy world in which to exist but it's a simple fact that not everyone will do the right thing. In order for an organisation to be "self-governing" one would think it necessary for some examples of individuals or organisations to be made by the "government" of the organisation in an effort to keep everyone doing the right thing. So hit me with those examples people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Im aware, peripherally, of a pilot that had a X country endorsement suspended until supplementary training with an instructor was undertaken as a result of a class C airspace violation. I suspect that pilot was the poorer by $hundreds to $thousands as a result..... Was quite a few years back now in ADL, flyer was a triker Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Middle of December the Ops manager suspended the license of a pilot four four months, after that pilot committed several repeated operational offences...........Maj.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryc Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I know i'm probably getting a bit of a reputation as a grump around these parts and always having a go at RA-Aus but i must say the more i learn the more i'm utterly disappointed.In an attempt to assuage a level of despair that seems imminent i am hoping that someone can show me an example of where RA-Aus has taken enforcement action against an individual or organisation. I mean actually suspended/removed a pilot certificate or an individual or organisations training or maintenance approvals. It's all very well assuming that everyone on the planet will do the right thing and that's a lovely fantasy world in which to exist but it's a simple fact that not everyone will do the right thing. In order for an organisation to be "self-governing" one would think it necessary for some examples of individuals or organisations to be made by the "government" of the organisation in an effort to keep everyone doing the right thing. So hit me with those examples people! Hi Volksy, I'm aware of one but I don't feel it needs to be discussed on a forum. Raa do a good job in this regard. Your idea that some how we humans can only be controlled by constant examples of what might happen to us is in my mind not correct. My experience is that the overwhelming majority do the right thing and in fact gain pleasure knowing they do the right thing. To have someone/organization constantly threatening is demoralizing for them all. For those that don't do the right thing the answer is education education education and if after that they still offend it loss of certificate. Like I said raa do this well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 1. Local pilot forced to undergo retraining due to CTA breaches 2. Two local pilots forced to undergo CTA awareness training after a significant breach of CTA 3. Instructor application denied until a second check performed by a third party was passed due to previous history of the pilot 4. Aircraft grounded until independent inspection of homebuilt cheetah was performed due to the 'history' of the aircraft. 5. BFR rejected until FURTHER training performed by a flying school, with a list of "obligations' forced apon the pilot from the RAA. 6. Suspension of pax carrying endorsement of a pilot until further training provided due to a report from a CFI of 'observed' poor standards. Thats just what I can recall over the past year or so. Any more questions volsky? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 1. Local pilot forced to undergo retraining due to CTA breaches2. Two local pilots forced to undergo CTA awareness training after a significant breach of CTA 3. Instructor application denied until a second check performed by a third party was passed due to previous history of the pilot 4. Aircraft grounded until independent inspection of homebuilt cheetah was performed due to the 'history' of the aircraft. 5. BFR rejected until FURTHER training performed by a flying school, with a list of "obligations' forced apon the pilot from the RAA. 6. Suspension of pax carrying endorsement of a pilot until further training provided due to a report from a CFI of 'observed' poor standards. Thats just what I can recall over the past year or so. Any more questions volsky? Good to see a big stick sometimes gets used! Crikey, I might have to lift my own game... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Good to see some things happening motz. Nothing too scary though in your list? I was hoping for a few more examples like Maj mentioned and your point 4. With 30 years of history, 3500 aircraft, 162 FTF's and 10,000 members i'm hoping there's still a lot more out there. Anyone know of any L2's being revoked or flying school authorities/instructor ratings being suspended? The thought did just occur that most individuals/organisations probably give up their approvals or let them lapse prior to having them forcibly removed. Perhaps that's why i'm not reading much in the newspapers and magazines about such things? I feel for anyone trying to operate a viable school or maintenance business in RA-Aus if there's little to no oversight or protection of standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodo Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 RA does regular FTF inspections, and I know of FTFs being asked to modify things to RA requirements. I am aware of one CFI who threw in his ticket in frustration after an RA inspection, but I don't know the request/requirements, or if RA were being unreasonable or not (I know he thought so!) I think, like CASA, RA try to keep standards by asking FTFs to modify how they do things, but like CASA, it is hard to see how reasonable the requests are, or effective these are. The SMS requirement is one which springs to mind... dodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Volsky, just because its not advertised, doesn't mean it doesn't happen..Did you read about the YGLB GA school that got 24 NCN's from CASA? They dont put that in the papers, but im sure you KNOW it happened? The points I listed were just the cases ive been involved with. One little school:) You do the maths. If your looking for a stick to beat the RAA up with, perhaps look a little closer to the school near you:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 It would be good if some summaries and statistics were published, without naming names, to reassure us that this process is working. Similar to what is done with complaints to professional societies such as Engineers Australia about their members. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 Volsky, just because its not advertised, doesn't mean it doesn't happen..Did you read about the YGLB GA school that got 24 NCN's from CASA? They dont put that in the papers, but im sure you KNOW it happened?The points I listed were just the cases ive been involved with. One little school:) You do the maths. If your looking for a stick to beat the RAA up with, perhaps look a little closer to the school near you:) There are rumours around but i haven't read anything about it. The same rumour says that RA were also in attendance during the audit (CASA was looking over their shoulder at the time to see how they did things). Yet while the GA side has shut down the RA side continues on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Yes, so like I said, you won't read about it, but it does happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 It would be good if some summaries and statistics were published, without naming names, to reassure us that this process is working. Similar to what is done with complaints to professional societies such as Engineers Australia about their members. I understand that side of it, but it really don't want to know of problems Australia wide, I've seen one school effectively shut down due to poor standards , the. system works , just doesn't make a lot of noise about it, on the other side , if a school gets a smack on the wrist and then goes about fixing the problems I don't see how it's being helpful to drag them through the public view! Matty 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I understand that side of it, but it really don't want to know of problems Australia wide, I've seen one school effectively shut down due to poor standards , the. system works , just doesn't make a lot of noise about it, on the other side , if a school gets a smack on the wrist and then goes about fixing the problems I don't see how it's being helpful to drag them through the public view!Matty Perhaps de-identified data is appropriate. As they say justice must not only be done but seen to be done Andy. P.S De-Identified data is a harder thing to achieve than say...In our small community the data might well be de-identified at release and of the readers only a small percentage might not actually know who the underlying offender was...... In which case its "seen to be done".......self defeating argument that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalman Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I know of another fella who got a cease and desist from CASA for crossing half of QLD at night with pax on an old restricted licence, he spent a lot of energy trying to find out who dobbed, there was several complaints from various sources that I knew of , it was common knowledge in the small community in the area ,CASA did what they should have but it did take a while to see them in action Matty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68volksy Posted January 25, 2014 Author Share Posted January 25, 2014 I understand that side of it, but it really don't want to know of problems Australia wide, I've seen one school effectively shut down due to poor standards , the. system works , just doesn't make a lot of noise about it, on the other side , if a school gets a smack on the wrist and then goes about fixing the problems I don't see how it's being helpful to drag them through the public view!Matty I'd very much like to see some proof that standards are being maintained and that justice is being done. Even a simple statement such as "RA-Aus removed the training approval for 1 school during 2013 and suspended 1 L2 licence" would be great. I'm glad to hear they followed through with at least 1 school. I know on the whole that RA-Aus administration are a friendly bunch, as are many of its members. Would we describe it more as a "toothless kitten" or a "respected policeman" though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I think both....appropriately....we start out at kitten level friendly and pushing education as a solution.....but if necessary will apply 4x2 liberally around the brainium holder...... IMHO exactly as it should be...... I think it also needs to be pointed out that while most who earn the ire of the Opps team will have to deal with them as they discuss pilot shortcomings, understand that CASA can and will take over the role of disciplinarian if it feels what was done was blatant or dangerous enough, or of high visibility such as the guy down near Albury flying low buzzing boats on the reservoir, so that they need to get involved. If you are unlucky enough to find yourself in that position then a lotto win and a get out of gaol free card might well be needed sometime shortly. Alternately I think our Opps team also have the option of referring repeat offenders to CASA. If our team gets sick of trying to educate you then you'll be thrown to the sharks if that's what it takes......again IMHO exactly as it should be Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Too right Andy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 know on the whole that RA-Aus administration are a friendly bunch, as are many of its members. Would we describe it more as a "toothless kitten" . volksy with the shxx that I have gone through over my plane there has only been on tec bloke that took any interest in what i was trying to do and they sacked him for my plane to be airworthy needed new wind screen new undercarriage and legs new engine frame new rudder peddles new fuel gasculator repair of leading edge of right wing and re rigged return line to fuel tank this was found by a lame l2 l3 that cared this is after repair and sighned out as airworthy writing to raa and casa it was a civil matter according to them and I have that in writing from raa and casa don't own the plane now neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 And you had your day in Court with a Magistrate Storchy; be careful what you write for your own sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 must be standing on toes with the truth neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Not mine, I'm easy, but magistrates sometimes can be prickly as well as powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nong Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Miss out on the police force when you were a young bloke, by any chance ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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