RAAus To RPL Conversion

[DrZoos]

Ok since even CASA helpline dont know whats going on I will save some people a lot of headaches. My local flight schools and I have spent ages on this because even CASA was confused about how to proceed. With many different answers from the same staff on the same helpline..

 

 

Despite what the glossy brochure says above this is what you actually have to do:

 

Fill in CASA form form61-1ra and form61-9pic and form61-1re

 

Submit certified copies of everything in those forms including a copy of your paper pilot certificate

 

Have the flight review submitted to CASA by the CASA Level 1 or Level 2 instructor or ATO (this took 3 phone calls to work out who was qualified to do it).

 

Undertake a flight review - note thats not a flight check. A flight review includes both inflight instruction and inflight assessment plus on ground stuff and is likely to be more then an hour or two.

 

It is wise to incorporate your Controlled Airspace and Aerodrome Endorsements into that

 

You will also need to attain a level 4 to 6 Aviation English Proficiency , to be granted your endorsements which includes Radio. Without it your radio endorsement is not valid. This involves going to a flight school that has an ATO. An ATO can only approve level 6. To get a lower level apparently you need to go to an assessment center eg a uni and they charge for a course and exam. Just get an ATO at a flight school to do it.

 

Ok these are the pages you will need to refer to

 

Page 80 PAges 6-11

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/newrules/parts/061/download/part61-mos-schedule2.pdf

 

Page 574 Page 573

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100212/part-61-instrument-vol4-schedule-5.pdf

 

PAge 651

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100212/part-61-instrument-vol4-schedule-8.pdf

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100191/rr61_rpl_fs.pdf

 

Then if you want to enter CTA and fly with more then one passenger you must have a Class 2 or 1 medical. Go the class 2, The doctor told me its easier to pass then the Recreational Aviation Medical which is about 12 pages compared to about 6 for the class 2.

 

Hope this helps as you would not believe how long this has taken to work out...

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Should generate some much needed revenue for all concerned, except those doing the hand in pocket bit.

 

 

[DrZoos]

So far $187 for the medical

 

$50 for the licence fee

 

about 3-4 hours all up for flight review and CTA $900-1200

 

2 hours on the ground $120

 

Looks like $1300-1500 ish but the way i look at it , is it gives me much better value for my aircraft use as i can fly through airspace with safety rather then around and more importantly it opens up many many more places and events that i would like to fly to and use my aircraft as transport... So i think i will get my moneys worth in about 12-18 months

 

If i do the flight review in a 172 or 182? ?? i can also hire those if or when i want to take the family or parents away.

 

If i didnt own my own aircraft i would probably not do it.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

RPL still can't fly a RA-AUS registered aircraft in controlled airspace, the CAO doesn't permit it and neither does the Ops Manual. Once those 2 items are fixed I can see holding dual RPL/RPC to be beneficial.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

It doesn't need to be that difficult or costly and you can do it in phases. An RA-Aus Pilot Certificate holder can obtain an RPL then complete the Flight Review in a type they are familiar with, OCTA and use a Recreational Aviation medical (RAMPC).

 

Be prepared for the flight review and it should be too extensive if you're up to standard:

 

http://casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/5_81_1.pdf

 

Don't let people con you, a grade 1 or 2 instructor can complete flight reviews in their own right, so you don't need to go through a school. You only need a school to complete flight training towards gaining a licence or rating. Endorsements and flight reviews are not considered to be flight training.

 

The initial exercise shouldn't cost more than an hours dual plus the CASA fee and medical (which isn't a bad thing anyway). Further down the track you can add airspace and check-outs on other types, if you want to carry more than 1 passenger (aircraft limited to 1500kg Max takeoff weight - Cessna 182, Piper Arrow fit in easily), do the class 2 and away you go.

 

 

[coljones]

Then if you want to enter CTA and fly with more then one passenger you must have a Class 2 or 1 medical. Go the class 2, The doctor told me its easier to pass then the Recreational Aviation Medical which is about 12 pages compared to about 6 for the class 2.

The Recreational Aviation Medical Practitioners Certificate (RAMPC) is only a 3 page document and can be filled by your GP see http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100908

 

You only need to hold a RAMPC to fly most RPL activities including CTA. If you want more than 1 pax or fly over 10,000 feet you will need to hold a Class 1 or 2 Medical or have a safety pilot with a Class 1 or 2 Medical. If you have medical issues you can have an initial consultation with a DAME but if you have conditions you will still need to see specialist and establish a control pattern. If you go off and see your friendly GP with your RAMPC medical stuff and you can't pass the, quite simple, hurdles then they can refer you off to the specialists to get the right reports to take to the DAME to minimise the delays of getting a Class 2 medical. Talk to your GP about your flying, they might just give you a RAMPC. Unless you want more than 2 pax or fly to the moon, for this you will need a Class 2. If you are too crook for a RAMPC then you should have a close and personal relationship with your GP anyway.

 

If you don't fly into security controlled dromes you will not need an ASIC, an AVID will do - they last for 5 years.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Important update re aviation English....i stumbled upon this...CASA didnt know this and despite repeated phone calls even to the head of section they got it wrong...

 

For english test see the Guidance section on this form

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/manuals/regulate/fcl/form61-9elp.pdf

 

An applicant for a recreational pilot licence (RPL) needs to be proficient in general English. Applicants have to show evidence of an acceptable background in English and be interviewed by their Head of Flying Operations (HOFO) to qualify for an RPL. RPL applicants are not expected to know about aviation terminology, or to be familiar with the aviation environment. Therefore, the level 6 expert speaker assessment is not appropriate.

 

Applicants who are fluent in English yet do not meet the schooling or employment criteria for the GELP English standard can be assessed by a CASA-approved assessor, instead of sitting one of the accepted general English language tests such as TOEFL, TOEIC or IELTS. This form is used for this purpose

 

 

[DrZoos]

 

RPL still can't fly a RA-AUS registered aircraft in controlled airspace, the CAO doesn't permit it and neither does the Ops Manual. Once those 2 items are fixed I can see holding dual RPL/RPC to be beneficial.

Im pretty sure your wrong here a PPL has long been able to fly a 24 rego into CTA

The PPLs in our club go through coffs all the time as do many others i know of...

 

 

[rhysmcc]

[ATTACH=full]32121[/ATTACH]Im pretty sure your wrong here a PPL has long been able to fly a 24 rego into CTA

The PPLs in our club go through coffs all the time as do many others i know of...

Yes PPLs can but RPL can't. They are not the same thing. It's all in the detail. CAO requires a CAR5 license (RPL is a Part 61) and the Ops Manual states private license is required. Until the paper work is tidied up from a legal (and insurance) stand point you can't fly RA-AUS aircraft in controlled airspace without a PPL or higher (ie not a RPL)

 

 

[DrZoos]

Yes PPLs can but RPL can't. They are not the same thing. It's all in the detail. CAO requires a CAR5 license (RPL is a Part 61) and the Ops Manual states private license is required. Until the paper work is tidied up from a legal (and insurance) stand point you can't fly RA-AUS aircraft in controlled airspace without a PPL or higher (ie not a RPL)

If this is correct we need RAAus to change this asap or our aircraft fleet will be at a massive disadvantage for resale...and not able to be used for what it should be able to be used for...is anyone across whether they are doing so

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Who knows what's in the new Ops Manual... I'm starting to doubt whether one actually exists. With a lack of any policy given by the board we don't even know if it's something "they" want.

 

 

[DrZoos]

 

Your dead set right. Para 6.4 d 1 and e needs changing to include part 61

 

Unless there is something in the part 61 legislation that says it effectively replaces parts of the old legislation

 

 

[coljones]

25.10 has been amended by

 

"Civil Aviation Order (Flight Crew Licensing) Repeal and Amendment Instrument 2014 (No. 1)

 

- F2014L01177"

 

by

 

John F. McCormick

 

Director of Aviation Safety

 

27 August 2014

 

New Subparagraphs 6.4 (d) and (e), among many others

 

Substitute

 

(d) the aeroplane is flown by the holder of a pilot licence with an aeroplane category rating:

 

(i) issued under Part 61 of CASR 1998; and

 

(ii) that allows the holder to fly inside the controlled airspace;

 

(e) the pilot has a valid flight review for the class rating in accordance with Part 61 of CASR 1998;

 

=====================================================================

 

RAA pilots with an RPL (or higher) and controlled airspace and drome endos can fly suitably equipped RAA planes through controlled spaces - they will probably need both an RAA and a RPL radio endo as well.

 

 

[Vev]

May be a dumb question, but can the flight review be completed in a RAA aircraft of the right category?

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[king_daniels]

No I do not think so, an RAA aircraft is not a registered aircraft or a recognised aircraft but someone did say you can do it in an equivalent aircraft but that is his say and I have not found anywhere in Part 61 to back this up.

 

Daniel

 

 

[Roundsounds]

A flight review for the purposes of satisfying CASR Part 61 cannot be completed in an RAA registered aircraft. For a grade 1 or 2 instructor to exercise the privileges of their instructor rating the flight needs to be completed in an appropriately VH registered aircraft. Think in terms of an RAA instructor completing a flight review, it cannot be completed in a VH registered aircraft. Under certain circumstances a GA flight review may be accepted by RAA for high performance category aircraft (OM 2.07, 3(i)) but there are no reciprocal provisions under CASR Part 61.

 

The reference to an equivalent aircraft was intended to apply to say a VH registered version of an aircraft the pilot is familiar with and current on. (Jabiru, Piper J3 Cub, Piper Light Sports etc).

 

 

[king_daniels]

As I said, I do not think you can do a flight review in an RAA registered aircraft however, I cannot find anything to back that up, in part 61 it clearly states as follows:

 

It does not mention a registered aircraft or a recognised aircraft, so my thinking reading below, you can do your flight review in either RAA or VH registered aircraft. It would be a bit hard to say , for instance: flying a tecnam to jump into a tecnam to do a flight review and the only difference is that one has letters and one has numbers.

 

I am not saying that I am correct or right, I just haven't found or interpreted where it clearly states where you can or cannot.

 

61.015 Definition of category of aircraft for Part 61

 

Each of the following is a category of aircraft:

 

(a) aeroplane;

 

(b) helicopter;

 

© powered-lift aircraft;

 

(d) gyroplane;

 

(e) airship.

 

61.020 Definition of class of aircraft for Part 61

 

(1) Each of the following is a class of aircraft:

 

(a) single-engine aeroplane;

 

(b) multi-engine aeroplane;

 

© single-engine helicopter;

 

Federal Register of Legislative Instruments F2013L00218

 

Amendments of Civil Aviation Safety Regulations 1998 Schedule 1

 

2013, 5 Civil Aviation Legislation Amendment Regulation 2013 (No. 1) 37

 

(d) single-engine gyroplane;

 

(e) airship.

 

(2) For this Part, the single-engine aeroplane class includes:

 

(a) multi-engine centre-line thrust aeroplanes; and

 

(b) multi-engine aeroplanes that are prescribed by a legislative

 

instrument under regulation 61.050 (Prescription of

 

multi-engine aeroplanes included in single-engine

 

aeroplane class).

 

61.025 Definition of aeroplane for Part 61

 

Aeroplane means an aeroplane that has flight controls

 

providing control of the aeroplane in 3 axes.

 

 

[djpacro]

A couple more clues on flight reviews. Part 61.400 states:

 

"(3) The flight review must be conducted in:

 

(a) an aircraft that can be flown under the rating"

 

And the CASA form 61-9FR has aircraft registration: VH - _ _ _

 

 

[king_daniels]

OK, let's go this way, can a flight review be done in a foreign registered aircraft? They would not have the VH prefix on the side of their aircraft.

 

Kind Regards

 

Daniel

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Yes, most overseas based Aussie airline pilots eg CX, KA EK etc can use there 6 monthly Proficiency Check to cover the requirements of a BFR reference CAR5.81 As long as the type is on the Oz register, eg A320, A330 etc, you need to have a current class 2 medical as a min, that's to exercise your privalages of a PPL. As for an RAA BFR I keep it simple and go up with the CFI for the check.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

As long the GA instructor is also a RA-AUS instructor I can't see why it shouldn't be allowed. Nothing in the rules seem to say it must be registered with CASA to qualify. It would be great for the dual GA/RA-AUS schools, could offer the RPL/RPC combined course in a RA-AUS registered aircraft keeping costs lower.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

You will not find a CASR Part 61 reference saying you cannot do a flight review in an RAA registered aircraft, it comes down to the privileges of the instructor rating. Even if the instructor holds both RAAus and GA ratings, the aircraft he is conducting the review is either operating under the CAO 95 series exemptions and the RAA Ops manual or CASR Part 61. The instructor cannot certify for a GA flight review if they were operating under RAA regs and visa versa. The analogy of proficiency checks in the airline world is no longer valid under Part 61, as a proficiency check on a type rating only covers ops in the type eg A330, B747-400 etc. If the type rated pilot were to fly a single engine light aircraft they would need to have a current flight review for single engine aeroplanes (SEA) class operations.

 

 

[king_daniels]

Roundsounds

 

So I would assume that would include VH registered aircraft flown under experimental, you still haven't backed your comment using the Current Rules CASR 1998 including part 61 CAR 1988 CAAP, we are talking about a flight review to obtain a recreational pilots licence, that is not a flight test or any examination. I hear what you're saying but I cannot for the life of me find where to back your findings. The question was asked 'can an RAA registered aircraft be used to do a flight review to obtain an CASR RPL recreational pilots licence'? I have not found anything that states that it cannot be used, I have found more in part 61 that it can be used. I, myself still do not know.

 

Kind Regards

 

Daniel

 

 

[pmccarthy]

This was discussed in a thread a few weeks back. I know that in the past pilots have completed a combined GA/RA flight review in an RA aircraft, I dont know what the new rules say. Other disagreed with me and said it wasnt possible but I know that it has been done.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

King_daniels, the key to the answer is, as I have mentioned previously - in the privileges of the instructor rating. A GA instructor cannot exercise the privileges of their rating in an RAA registered aircraft, nor can an RAA instructor in a GA registered aircraft. Even if the individual instructor holds both ratings, they cannot certify both flight reviews in a single flight. At best, a GA flight review can be accepted by RAA as a high performance flight review as the RAA Operations Manual allows it. There are no provisions in the CAR, CASR or CAO rules to allow an RAA flight review to be accepted as a GA flight review. As I have said, it relies on which "hat" the instructor is wearing, that comes down to under which set of rules the aircraft is operating, which is in turn determined by the aircraft registration. This has always been the case, any instructor signing off both in past years has been doing so incorrectly. (This interpretation was confirmed by a phone call to my local CASA FOI)