Ron5335 Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/12/24/16/38/helicopter-crashed-on-fiji-island-seven-aussies-and-kiwis-on-board-escaped-without-injury Any ideas on what would have caused this sudden reaction ????? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 They say a gust of wind. you can see it is gusty and quite strong in the video. But never seen a reaction like this one to gusts. Maybe that landing pad needs to be more in the open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Just my opinion but if I had to make a categoric statement about whether it was a gust, of even say 70 kts, I'd say no way ... In my comm heli years I did have a few hairy moments and more than a fair share was pax induced. Doesn't matter how well you brief them and how much you distrust them and keep an eagle eye on them, they seem to have a constant supply of new ways to try and kill you - it's still pilot error though, if it results in a gotcha. He was certainly landing tail into wind in gusty conditions and that's tricky but the sudden pitch down plus leap into the air could IMHO only happen because - 1. unless repeatedly briefed to not do so, the pax nearly always want to start unbuckling in the hover prior to landing - they don't realise they're still flying. 2. When the skids then touch, particularly in blustery conditions, they reach out and grab something. Frequently it has been the collective, and if they pull it up you get a sudden leap into the air as we see here, in this incident they still had flight rpm. 3. Having touched down the pilot may have been looking toward his rear seat pax - that's not unusual, most of the pax are behind - if the machine suddenly leapt upward he may well have grabbed at the collective and momentarily lost concentration on the cyclic, pushing it forward - just 30mm or so would be enough. He'd have had plenty to think about afterwards ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolate Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Cyclic has definely gone forward..see swash plate in video. My money is on pax grabbing cyclic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotsman Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Or potentially that the PIC thought that the aircraft was toppling backwards off the pad and over corrected forwards with the cyclic (echoes of the recent fatal accident on dolly which might have been in the back of the pilots mind). When you look inside the cockpit you see a large rapid forward cyclic movement. Would the dual controls not be removed this preventing passenger induced forward cyclic? No time on type so just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairoaks Flyer Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 'ello, Fairoaks Flyer 'ere. Having watched the video from a tourist's mobile phone, it is quite apparent that the chopper did not land head to wind. The gust got it under the tail boom and upended it. What does wind do when it crosses from water to land? It crosses at 90 degrees and comes from the water. That is exactly what happened to the chopper in Fiji. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Not sure how much rotary wing time you have Fairoaks Flyer, but I'd guess not a lot ... sure the helicopter is landing tail to wind but that's not at all unusual. On helipads like that one you'd always choose to do so rather than expose waiting pax or people filming the landing to your tailrotor. Also, you may not know, but helicopters have a tolerance to wind gusts that fixed wing flyers couldn't imagine, it'd take a sudden 150kt gust to do anything like what is shown here. If you pause the video and then move forward in freeze frame while watching the swashplate you can see a large input which immediately precedes the nose pitching down. I can't see the input to the cyclic stick inside the cabin but there's no doubt this was caused by someone or something shoving the cyclic forward, the pilot has then reacted by hauling collective. If the tree hadn't been there he might have got away with it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Shoved it or fallen against it. One or the other. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairoaks Flyer Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I can see white caps on the waves out to sea and you wouldn't see them if the wind was blowing off-shore. Maybe it was a combination of wind and cyclic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 There is not a lot of surface area in that tail boom and as has been said even a big wind wouldn't have that much effect. Definitely control input. When watching it as a small video I thought I saw the person in the right seat (is that pic in all helicopters or just some?) push their right arm all the way forward but once I switched to full screen it blurred it beyond recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotsman Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Here's a slowed down link of the accident and I still believe that you can see the PIC punt the cyclic forward as he feels it toppling backwards. I guess that he thinks that the back of the rear skids are not on the pad. In terms of the gust from behind lifting the tail like that, the horizontal stabiliser isn't big enough to create that lifting moment even with consideration of the length of the arm (boom). And from the perspective of the disc a twenty knot guts for example would be the same as going through translational lift which doesn't cause this degree of nose forward. If this did occur at these winds speeds helicopters would be unflyable with this happening all the time. Another point that was raised on another forum was that the sea state behind the aircraft only shows a few white horses starting so the wing was guesstimated to be under twenty knots. A lot of people commenting on the other forums confused the downwash of the disc for storm winds. My Zimbabwean two cents.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperplace Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Zim 2c? that would be really hard to find, what with the number of Zim$ to make US$1......... do they even have a zim$ any more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M61A1 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 After watching that....definitely a cyclic input, pilot or pax I don't know. Around the 19 sec mark, if you freeze it, you can see the blade starting to fly up. Remember that it's a Eurocopter so the disc spins clockwise from the top, not as the video shows, and that all control inputs precede the output by 90 degrees. ( for the non heli people) Can't remember what it's like getting in and out of a squirrel, but I accidentally kick the cyclic nearly every time I get in or out of a Tiger or a 206. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Zim 2c? that would be really hard to find, what with the number of Zim$ to make US$1.........do they even have a zim$ any more? It took me a while too ... I concluded that's what Scotsman was subtley and very humbly saying ... what his 2c was worth - very droll His observations are worth the full 2c in any currency though, I'd say. As I understand it Mugabe the Despot eventually capitulated and has now accepted the use of $US because currency printing costs became prohibitive and international commerce and trade relations had become completely stalled. I was over there earlier this year and very disappointed to not be able to collect another 3 trillion dollar note for 5 bucks - twice it's face value - instead I had to settle for an uncirculated 100 billion dollar note for ten bucks ... not happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hihosland Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I believe Mugabe has changed ships and the local economy is to function henceforth with Chinese Yuan, something to do with China forgiving some 14Billion US$ ( IIRC) equivalent loans 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head in the clouds Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I believe Mugabe has changed ships and the local economy is to function henceforth with Chinese Yuan,something to do with China forgiving some 14Billion US$ ( IIRC) equivalent loans Makes good sense hiho, Mugabe the Eternal (when will he pass on - must be the oldest southern african on the planet by now) has always been happy to switch loyalties with the change of the tide - any straw, sinking ship, all that. Makes you wonder if the average African still thinks he/she are now better off than under the 1960s Smith UDI regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperplace Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I used to visit Zim in the 90s, went there a lot, wonderful country, great people. Completely ruined by Mugabe. In Africa the really bad dictators live to 100, notwithstanding the short life expectancy for everyone else. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rotorwork Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 There are several scenarios on the other site One that made me smile was the tourists camera strap around the collective. Also noted in the photos was the cabin separation, this seems to happen a lot with AS 350 accidents Fly Safe RW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotsman Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 It took me a while too ... I concluded that's what Scotsman was subtley and very humbly saying ... what his 2c was worth - very droll His observations are worth the full 2c in any currency though, I'd say. As I understand it Mugabe the Despot eventually capitulated and has now accepted the use of $US because currency printing costs became prohibitive and international commerce and trade relations had become completely stalled. I was over there earlier this year and very disappointed to not be able to collect another 3 trillion dollar note for 5 bucks - twice it's face value - instead I had to settle for an uncirculated 100 billion dollar note for ten bucks ... not happy! Lol I managed to get a five hundred billion note but not a trillion one sadly. Funny how a decrepit dictator can take over a country and a thread with ease! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi303 Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Also noted in the photos was the cabin separation, this seems to happen a lot with AS 350 accidents Fly Safe RW Is that actually a good thing if the cabin stays together while separate? Keeping the ppl away from the choppy whirly things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Here is another Squirrel near miss. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10208233629229257 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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