VFR Waypoint Map

[hkaneshiro]

I was just wondering if there was a published map of VFR way points? I know its listed in the ERSA alphabetically. However it strikes me as thing being a potential issue of having a "unknown known".

 

I.e if i am planning a flight in an unfamiliar area, how would I know if there is/was a VFR waypoint somewhere to notify Airservices of my flight plan?

[KRviator]

They're all on the VTC's & VNC's you can download from ASA so you can see if they'll be aligned with your route.

If you're really keen you can copy them from the DAH into Excel, export the file as a CSV, then upload that into Google Maps or your favourite EFIS. I did that for the Dynon & Garmin EFIS' several years ago before you could purchase Australian databases for them.

[Bosi72]

Most vfr points are on vnc/vtc but not all. 

Turn on "vfr waypoints" option in your efb to see them all.

With regards to airservices, and assuming you are in flight, you can tell you are X miles N/S/W/E from such and such township, they will tell you sqawk ident, then they will know your position.

[old man emu]

For about $15.00 you can buy pieces of paper that have heaps of waypoints marked on them. You can even draw straight lines between those waypoints to see how far apart they are. You can even use a thing called a protractor to find the direction relative to North that you have to fly to get to the waypoint from where your starting point.

 

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

For about $15.00 you can buy pieces of paper that have heaps of waypoints marked on them. You can even draw straight lines between those waypoints to see how far apart they are. You can even use a thing called a protractor to find the direction relative to North that you have to fly to get to the waypoint from where your starting point.

 

I don't see any VFR waypoints on your $15 piece if paper, plenty on Ozrunways.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Kiwi

[facthunter]

A waypoint should have good visual recognition if it's for VFR flight. Check it on Google before you fly the route. Nev

[old man emu]

[facthunter]

Sarcasm is sometimes called the lowest form of wit, but it's at least witty.. I'm an organism that maybe got here by orgasm..  A form of light relief.  Nev

[old man emu]

A waypoint is a specified geographical location used to define an area navigation route or the flight path of an aircraft employing area navigation. 

 

Specified by whom?

 

On my piece of paper, I can specify any geographical location to use in my flight plan.

On 22/02/2023 at 4:05 PM, hkaneshiro said:

if i am planning a flight in an unfamiliar area, how would I know if there is/was a VFR waypoint somewhere to notify Airservices of my flight plan

Here are the areas covered by VTCs in Australia  and here are the VNCs Lots of blank spaces for you to fill with your personally specified waypoints.

[hkaneshiro]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

A waypoint is a specified geographical location used to define an area navigation route or the flight path of an aircraft employing area navigation. 

 

Specified by whom?

 

On my piece of paper, I can specify any geographical location to use in my flight plan.

Here are the areas covered by VTCs in Australia  and here are the VNCs Lots of blank spaces for you to fill with your personally specified waypoints.

 

6 hours ago, old man emu said:

For about $15.00 you can buy pieces of paper that have heaps of waypoints marked on them. You can even draw straight lines between those waypoints to see how far apart they are. You can even use a thing called a protractor to find the direction relative to North that you have to fly to get to the waypoint from where your starting point.

 

 

 

There are VFR waypoints listed in the ERSA. Which you can translate to putting into a flight plan to inform Air Services in the NAIPS. Question is finding one that is an official one so it is easy to file a flight plan. For example - in Perth there is this thing called the Victor 65 Perth City orbit - the way points in that are not specified in the VTC/VNC so I only knew what to put into my flight plan by asking around. I'm sure that Harbour Scenic 1 in Sydney is the same?

 

If there is no VFR way point specified, I was told the proper method is to specify the Latitude/Longitude in system (I don't know how to do this, but it seems trouble some if there was actually some official one nearby that you could have used.

 

 

7 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

Most vfr points are on vnc/vtc but not all. 

Turn on "vfr waypoints" option in your efb to see them all.

With regards to airservices, and assuming you are in flight, you can tell you are X miles N/S/W/E from such and such township, they will tell you sqawk ident, then they will know your position.

 

got it - yeah looks like an EFB is in order if I wanted to conveniently/visually see the way points for flight planning purposes. 

[hkaneshiro]

6 hours ago, old man emu said:

For about $15.00 you can buy pieces of paper that have heaps of waypoints marked on them. You can even draw straight lines between those waypoints to see how far apart they are. You can even use a thing called a protractor to find the direction relative to North that you have to fly to get to the waypoint from where your starting point.

 

 

Case in point - I don't even know where this is on the map in Australia.

Let's say I want to fly COONABLE -> COLLIE -> BARADINE

How do I know what the waypoint are to put into my flight plan without it being specified on the map. COONABLE/BARADINE presumably have airport ICAO identifiers that make it easy. But COLLIE may / may not have a VFR way point specified

 

 

[old man emu]

See those numbers with the little circle beside them? They are degrees of latitude and longitude, in a grid system. You count down from the top to the location, eg Collie, and that will give you what are called "Northings". Then you do the same thing from left to right. That will give you what is called an "Easting"  You enter those grid coordinated in your flight planning gizmo, but for flights in Australia the Northing is entered as a negative number because we are below the Equator (0 degrees). Eastings in Australia are alway a positive number.

 

See if you can find these locations on the map I posted.

 

You can check yours answers on Google Maps if you centre on this location: 111 Tooraweenah Aerodrome Rd, Tooraweenah.

 

 

[Bosi72]

If Glencoe YGLC is too far away, then you can use Lat/Long, or Bearing/Distance (AIP ENR 1.10-23,24).

 

Again, easier from Efb..

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

The waypoints that are not a" clearly identifiable feature" are  no good at confirming  where you are.  I've never seen Paradise HS or Osprey Reef but have been over them many times. Esperance is a waypoint AND an unmistakeable area on the Southern WA coast, easy  to identify positively. Nev

[KRviator]

5 hours ago, hkaneshiro said:

 

 

There are VFR waypoints listed in the ERSA. Which you can translate to putting into a flight plan to inform Air Services in the NAIPS. Question is finding one that is an official one so it is easy to file a flight plan. For example - in Perth there is this thing called the Victor 65 Perth City orbit - the way points in that are not specified in the VTC/VNC so I only knew what to put into my flight plan by asking around. I'm sure that Harbour Scenic 1 in Sydney is the same?

Victor 65 is described in the YPPH ERSA, same as the Sydney Harbour Scenic's are so described in the YSSY ERSA entry.

For YPPH V65 the route is CTE-PCTY-HKE, which translates to the VFR waypoints of Cottesloe-Perth City-Herdsman Lake and is what you would put in your ASA Flight Notification if that's your intent. For a Harbour Scenic, you'd plan via Long Reef. There's a lot more info and knowledge required than just what you see on a chart...

[old man emu]

It might seem like I am dumping of those of you who rely heavily on electronic devices for flight planning and execution. I can see the usefulness of these tools as a quick reference source of navigational information whilst in flight. That is the product of the advances in digital technology over the past 50 years. But an EFB is merely a tool. What I infer from some of the posts here is a lack of knowledge of basic principles of navigation.

 

When I was 5-years old, people began to teach me how to use a tool to communicate. The tool was called a "pencil". As I grew older I was taught to use another communication tool, an ink pen. Once I had learned not to blot my copybook, I was allowed to used another type of tool, a ball point pen, known by the trade name "Biro". These tools served me well through my Primary, Secondary and Tertiary education years. Later, I was taught to use another tool, a manual typewriter, which led me to the computer keyboard (whose complete bag of tricks I have yet to explore). Nowadays, I mainly use the computer keyboard to communicate. And right now I am looking at tools that will allow me to record an the sound of an interview digitally, then use some software to convert via my computer the sound to the symbols we call words. That tool will be a boon for my history research.

 

However, while I have these wonderful new tools with which to make written records events or facts, I still know how to do the same thing with a pencil - or even a stick on dirt if that is appropriate. So while I have apparently been making disparaging remarks about electronic devices for navigation, my point is that before using them, one must have the knowledge and experience of using the "primitive" tools from which the electronic devices have evolved.

[spacesailor]

Hear Here ?.

Make them use an expesive sextant ( bubble for flying  ) . I, We were not alowed calculators when doing Our test .

Why change things for the New generations.   LoL

Make them suffer , as we did.  Think Safety,  stop all flying , so No accidents.

spaciesailor

 

[facthunter]

The sextant is for "celestial" navigation using spherical trigonometry. (star moon shots etc) You had to be a qualified Navigator to do that and be able to SEE the objects you relied on through an astrodome in the roof.  Your "Prayer wheel" includes a calculator. MOST long haul flights( over water especially) pre war and just after, carried a navigator..   Nev

[hkaneshiro]

18 hours ago, KRviator said:

Victor 65 is described in the YPPH ERSA, same as the Sydney Harbour Scenic's are so described in the YSSY ERSA entry.

For YPPH V65 the route is CTE-PCTY-HKE, which translates to the VFR waypoints of Cottesloe-Perth City-Herdsman Lake and is what you would put in your ASA Flight Notification if that's your intent. For a Harbour Scenic, you'd plan via Long Reef. There's a lot more info and knowledge required than just what you see on a chart...

Ah this is actually good to know. An example of an unknown unknown - it didn't occur to me to look at YPPH Ersa when submitting my flight plan.

During my training lessons/flights for Victor 65,  I could not find all the waypoints on the map to put into NAIPS but I asked my instructor. And he just said to put in CTE-PCTY-HKE for  ASA clearance. And that made me wonder on how was one supposed to know there was a PCTY waypoint when its not marked on the VTC/VNC.

Similarly on another route - YPJT - BODD (Boddington mine). I knew there was  BODD waypoint - but didn't see it marked on the VTC/VNC and was wondering how people knew about it...

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by hkaneshiro

[facthunter]

It's Airservices/CASA's job to  provide  easy to use unambiguous information.   Nev

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, hkaneshiro said:

YPJT - BODD (Boddington mine). I knew there was  BODD waypoint - but didn't see it marked on the VTC/VNC and was wondering how people knew about it...

You have to use primary information sources. For a pilot/navigator, if no VTC/VNC , go to the WAC for the area where you are operating . Boddington Mine is a bloody great hole in the ground. I dont have the relevant WAC, but I be it's marked on in, especially if it's a waypoint. If you want to find its Lat/Long to put into your SmartNav, use the technique I explained in an earlier post. Since I don't have the relevant WAC, I simply went to Google Maps and found that Boddington Mine is located at -32.764317, 116.360615. Then I plugged those numbers into fhttps://www.gps-coordinates.net/gps-coordinates-converter and got  -324044, 1163112, which is as accurate as ERSA location details are.

 

Your questions, which are not in any way dumb, make me wonder if you have ever used a WAC, or do you simply carry the necessary ones for your flight in case a CASA Inspector pounces on you for a ramp check?

[KRviator]

1 hour ago, hkaneshiro said:

Ah this is actually good to know. An example of an unknown unknown - it didn't occur to me to look at YPPH Ersa when submitting my flight plan.

During my training lessons/flights for Victor 65,  I could not find all the waypoints on the map to put into NAIPS but I asked my instructor. And he just said to put in CTE-PCTY-HKE for  ASA clearance. And that made me wonder on how was one supposed to know there was a PCTY waypoint when its not marked on the VTC/VNC.

Similarly on another route - YPJT - BODD (Boddington mine). I knew there was  BODD waypoint - but didn't see it marked on the VTC/VNC and was wondering how people knew about it...

 

The list of VFR (and IFR) Waypoints is found in the ERSA. Most appear on the relevant visual charts, but not all (I shouldn't have generalised and said "they're all on the charts..."  in my previous post, there's always exceptions when dealing with CAsA / ASA!). This is Navigation 101 and your instructor should be showing you not only how to navigate, but where to navigate to! As well as the references to use both during planning and in flight. Sounds like they're short-changing you on the theory component somewhat - but at least you're asking questions here.

As I said above though, if you want to know what waypoints are available for your flight, you can download the list from the DAH into Excel, massage the Coordinates into Decimal and export it to a CSV. From there, upload it into Google Earth and you can pre-plan your flight with reference to VFR or IFR waypoints or just have a look at what's in your local area. I routinely use IFR waypoints in XC flying VFR as it makes it easier for Center as that's what most other traffic they're used to handling is using.

If you want to get realllly fancy, do it as a VLOOKUP and add some Trigonometry and you can plan your flight in Excel, right down to printing your NavLog & FuelLogs.

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, KRviator said:

Sounds like they're short-changing you on the theory component somewhat

That's my impression, too. My next question is: How old is your instructor? A twenty-something instructor has grown up using digital devices that do all the calculations without the operator really understanding how those calculations are done.

 

This reliance on digital devices resulting in the loss of basic knowledge was the basis of the 1958 short story by Isaac Asimov, entitled "The Feeling of Power".  The plot like goes like this: In the distant future, humans live in a computer-aided society and have forgotten the fundamentals of mathematics, including even the rudimentary skill of counting. A technician, discovers how to reverse-engineer the principles of pencil-and-paper arithmetic by studying the workings of ancient computers which were programmed by human beings. The rest of the story line follows the usual "military takes something unwarlike and turn it into a weapon system" scenario. But that is not the point I am making. My point is that over reliance on tools without having the fundamentals of what the tool does, can have negative effects.

[skippydiesel]

Cant say I use official way points, unless I am required to be at a certain point in space, to enter say a lane of entry or controlled airspace. Is this a deficiency in my piloting/training?

[old man emu]

1 minute ago, skippydiesel said:

unless I am required to be at a certain point in space

That's probably the crux of safety in busy areas. If everyone uses the same locations  when, say approaching an aerodrome, then traffic flow is more orderly and the risk of collision is reduced.