Rotax 912 oil filter. Reputable suppliers?

[BrendAn]

Okay, my favorite subject and soapbox. 

I did extensive research years ago. There are certainly a few oil filters that fit the Rotax 912. They are ones that usually fit the Toyota truck. I have a list of about 8 filters. The Pure One used to be at the top of the list due to its particle filtering capabilities. Years ago before Rotax changed to the filter they have today I would have argued that a filter like the Pure One was even better, but that has all changed. Rotax made a few changes that the US auto or motorcycle filters do not have. I will state that the paper filter medium inside the Rotax filter is nothing special, but all our US oil filters have a by-pass pressure of 13-15 psi. Rotax used to be 14-16 psi. One psi wasn't a big deal and it isn't even that accurate and that's why you see the psi spread. This allowed too much unfiltered oil to by-pass. Rotax by-pass pressure is now 18-22 psi to stop that. US oil filters use a wet sump engine with the reservoir at the bottom of the engine. The Rotax is a dry sump and the oil tank is supposed to be mounted within special limits related to the engine. Many did not follow these specs. For instance Kitfox mounted their oil tanks way too high. With the old filters and the standard US auto filter this allowed for oil to siphon back down towards the cylinders and it did cause some engines to have hydra lock. One of the reasons we gurgle before start. The newer Rotax filter has a check valve in place to prevent that. Other people mounted the tanks too low. This siphoned the oil out of the engine. Rotax replaced the anti drain back membrane with a newer softer material to prevent that. The US auto filter membranes are too stiff.

Like anything else in life some people get away with things and some don't. As far as warranty Rotax can and does cover many things out of warranty. People have to mentally get past warranty considerations and think long term. For instance I know of someone that had a 912ULS with 833 hrs. and 6 years old. He lost the #1 exhaust lifter. Rotax stepped up and paid for the problem. The hardness coating decade. It would have been easily argued that the wrong and poor filter choice if it had not been a Rotax filter allowed particulates to by-pass that lead to this failure. The only thing that saved this person was he used all Rotax parts, documented such and had absolute good documentation since day one. This saved this person thousands of dollars all which may have been denied because he wanted to save a couple bucks on a filter. What a waste that would have been. If you have any failure Rotax and or the NTSB if involved will want a complete copy of your logbook. So crappy record keeping (even if barley legal), use of after market parts and poor maint. can and does bite people in the butt on a very regular basis.

 

found this on the net.

Edited September 4, 2023 by BrendAn

[spenaroo]

The bypass valves and the micron rating on the filter medium make a big difference.
seen a few engines come in with a collapsed oil filter from the pressure - used to have some pictures on an old hard drive - very impressive to see the crush damage.
A workshop I used to work for had a motor destroyed by a reputable aftermarket filters with the wrong flow control valve- the filter company covered the repair from memory.

had to be careful with the Harley-Davidson filters.
the old evo filters and the twin-cam filter were identical looking. but they had different Micron levels in the filter medium (Evo was 10 micron, TC was 5 micron).
could use the new twin cam filter on an older Evo, but couldn't go the other way from memory.

Edited September 4, 2023 by spenaroo

[skippydiesel]

"I would be very surprised to find that the genuine Rotax 912 oil filter was identical to any other automotive filter"

 

Of course its not "identical to any other automotive filter" - it has ROTAX PART No.825014/016 and a few other unique words printed on the side🙃

 

[spenaroo]

Interestingly there are no cross references through the regular options, I used as an automotive parts interpreter.

[facthunter]

Why NOT just use the MAKER's filter and get out there flying?   There's a whole world of potential PAIN in substituting filters. Lots of SUBTLE differences that could cause problems for you.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

17 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

Yeah, even at $50 I wouldn't mind. A guy at work kept saying to me- 50 bucks! What a Rip off! But 50 bucks isn't even half a tank of fuel in my plane. And I'm happy to just burn that up 😁

Had another thought - When you purchase your $50 worth of fuel do you;

 

A. Check the price $ /L of the reputable servoes in your area ?

OR

B. Just purchase from the closest reputable servo and pay no heed to the $/L?

 

Whatever your answer, I would suggest that most pilots will endeavour to get their fuel at the best price (taking travel into consideration).

 

I am advocating no diffrent - that is the most cost effective price for an equal/better product.

 

The problem with Rotax oil filters is, the specifications would seem to be hard to find, making substitution with another oil filter, a dodgy proposition. This is not the case for hoses (oil/fuel/coolant), radiator cap, spark plugs, etc

[facthunter]

How are people supposed to determine what IS an equal or better product or even the possibility of an unsuitable and DANGEROUS product? Leave well alone. It's an AEROPLANE.  You can even get into strife with ride on Lawnmowers.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

34 minutes ago, facthunter said:

How are people supposed to determine what IS an equal or better product or even the possibility of an unsuitable and DANGEROUS product? Leave well alone. It's an AEROPLANE.  You can even get into strife with ride on Lawnmowers.  Nev

SPECIFICATIONS!!! and in some cases, identical part numbers, for the same product by the same manufacturer.

[danny_galaga]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

Had another thought - When you purchase your $50 worth of fuel do you;

 

A. Check the price $ /L of the reputable servoes in your area ?

OR

B. Just purchase from the closest reputable servo and pay no heed to the $/L?

 

Whatever your answer, I would suggest that most pilots will endeavour to get their fuel at the best price (taking travel into consideration).

 

I am advocating no diffrent - that is the most cost effective price for an equal/better product.

 

The problem with Rotax oil filters is, the specifications would seem to be hard to find, making substitution with another oil filter, a dodgy proposition. This is not the case for hoses (oil/fuel/coolant), radiator cap, spark plugs, etc

I utterly agree with you. And if someone can give me the part number right now, and show they have been using that filter for years, I'm onboard! 

 

I beg to differ about the oil hose..that seems to be inexplicably hard to pin down a basic replacement that is readily available

[spenaroo]

 

here are some examples I found on the net of oil filter crushing,
both are from Rotax powered sea-doo's (the ones I physically witnessed were in this application)
easy to see as this is a cartridge type instead of a spin on, where it would be hidden by the outer case.

still see the same damage with spin on's as the inside wall collapses - but harder to photograph

this is the oil system - risking major engine damage if anything goes wrong. for what a $10 saving?

will never understand why people cheap out in this area

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by spenaroo

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Why NOT just use the MAKER's filter and get out there flying?   There's a whole world of potential PAIN in substituting filters. Lots of SUBTLE differences that could cause problems for you.  Nev

If anyone read that post from another site they would see there are some differences 

[onetrack]

Tempest produce an "aviation" oil filter to fit the Rotax, and it's being sold by numerous aircraft parts suppliers. It doesn't appear to be any cheaper than the genuine OEM, from what I can find.

More importantly, Rotax do not approve the fitment of the Tempest oil filter - nor any other aftermarket filter.

 

The link to the Rotax Service Letter is at the bottom, and Page 7 covers the reasons why non-genuine filters don't meet with Rotax approval. The only way you can compare oil filters is by cutting them in half, longitudinally.

 

https://www.rotax-owner.com/en/912-914-technical-questions/9725-tempest-oil-filter_1

 

https://legacy.rotaxowner.com/si_tb_info/serviceletter/sl-912-014-r6.pdf

[spenaroo]

15 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

What I'm trying to do here is show you that marketing/sales is as much about phycology as delivering a quality product.

 

It's a fact that much of what goes into a Rotax, is derived from the automotive world (scale of production keeping the price down) BUT because its an aircraft engine and  a premium price can be asked (& received).

 

This would be fair enough, if the part is really a low volume item of unique specification to Rotax  BUt all too often this has been shown not to be the case.

 

I would think it highly likely that Spaneroo is demonstrating how the psychology works (no offence intended)

I think we have very different mentalities when it comes to servicing.

I treat different vehicles differently. believe it or not more expensive and higher performance usually means more care is needed with different tolerances.

My Amarok for example gets a high quality oil - as it has to be a specific oil grade to work properly in the VW engine.
properly expensive stuff but I haven't had any issues.

My Ducati gets only genuine parts used and shell oil. it is sensitive to oil in the main bearings and the belts will grenade the engine if they go wrong.
I know from my time in the dealership that if a certain popular brand of oil  - even with the same viscosity is used then it cause the bearing to skid instead of roll.

(another fun Ducati fact, wrong coolant will corrode the heads)
 

My Vstrom gets aftermarket K&N filters (nut on the end easy to remove) and quality aftermarket oil (funnily enough the same brand the Ducati doesn't like, is loved by the Jap bikes).

the Midget gets a reputable brand filter and basic mineral based oil - not used enough to hit a service interval. but still changed every 12 months

[danny_galaga]

I think what I've landed on, more or less is that if it goes INSIDE the engine, I won't muck around. If it's on the OUTSIDE, then it's worth investigating other sources. In this case I class the oil filter as INSIDE because it effects the oil which is 'inside'.

 

So, while no one was able to tell me if that dealer was reputable or not, I went and bought it elsewhere. You had to contact them first to order. This is the 21st century. Click n pay, baby!

[onetrack]

Danny has brought up a good point about the number of businesses that I also find, that seem to regard the products they sell as some kind of State Secret, and you have to contact them with all your details, just to find out pricing and a full description of the item you're interested in. This is a 19th Century business style, and the first thing I think of when I come across this attitude, is that the company cares little about the products it is selling, and cares even less about competitive pricing.

 

I've even gone to the trouble of going through this "contact process" to inquire about an item - whereby a week later, I got a reply saying, "Yes, this item is available, the price is $X (about double any other sellers price), and I can lodge my order by calling them" - as if they are selling limited-run Mint editions of the product! 

I often feel like emailing these business dinosaurs and telling them I can't be bothered playing their games, I want the full details and description and pricing of the product on display, on a user-friendly website - and I want prompt replies to parts queries and orders. Some businesses get the idea, a lot don't.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, spenaroo said:

I think we have very different mentalities when it comes to servicing.

I treat different vehicles differently. believe it or not more expensive and higher performance usually means more care is needed with different tolerances.

My Amarok for example gets a high quality oil - as it has to be a specific oil grade to work properly in the VW engine.
properly expensive stuff but I haven't had any issues.

My Ducati gets only genuine parts used and shell oil. it is sensitive to oil in the main bearings and the belts will grenade the engine if they go wrong.
I know from my time in the dealership that if a certain popular brand of oil  - even with the same viscosity is used then it cause the bearing to skid instead of roll.

(another fun Ducati fact, wrong coolant will corrode the heads)
 

My Vstrom gets aftermarket K&N filters (nut on the end easy to remove) and quality aftermarket oil (funnily enough the same brand the Ducati doesn't like, is loved by the Jap bikes).

the Midget gets a reputable brand filter and basic mineral based oil - not used enough to hit a service interval. but still changed every 12 months

Seems to me, you miss my point and have little understanding of or ability/inclination to match specifications.

 

I would never advocate using an inferior service/replacement parts on any vehicles/aircraft/engines in general. I advocate using quality items that meet/exceed OM specificatons or when OM is the only option, finding the best purchase price - not a hard concept.

 

I have little doubt that you purchase your fuel from the most cost effective/reputable supplier in your area - Why? because Australian fuel is required to me a minimum standard/specification. This means that you can be fairly certain the fuel, will do what its supposed to do and cause no damage.

 

The same goes for oils - Check out all the major oil suppliers. You will find that most will have lubricants (engine, transmission, brake, power steering) that meet/exceed the specifications for your vehicle. The same goes for coolants. That you are loyal to the vehicle manufacturer's recommended supplier (Shell/Castrol/etc) is testament to the power of marketing, not your ability to check out cost effective alternatives.

 

For many years Rotax specified, what was essentially a motorcycle oil, formulated to be compatible with a combined crankcase & gearbox/slip clutch. Then their marketing team figured there was the opportunity to supply & make more $$ from "in house" Rotax branded oil - AeroShell Sport Plus 4. If you haven't heard there is now a new Rotax oil (supposedly to address temperature issues in the 916) XPS 5W-50 (xps 5w50 datasheet). I never heard of anyone having issues with the (correct) motorcycle oils, so much so that many owners who started using these oils, still do so.

 

The vehicles you have listed are either from different eras (Midget - Amarok) use diffrent fuels (Midget - Amerock) diffrent engineering (V Strom - Ducati) and require oils that meet differing standards. Check out the owners handbook or go online to find the standards. Once you have the standards, you can check out what the lubricant suppliers/manufacturers recommend (even consult their technical advisor). Decide what brand you prefer - find the cheapest supplier - simples.

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

II beg to differ about the oil hose..that seems to be inexplicably hard to pin down a basic replacement that is readily available

Danny - Where have you been? I have researched this topic exhaustively  You will find much of what I found in your own https://www.recreationalflying.com/forums/topic/38915-started-a-spare-parts-list/?do=getNewCommenthttps://www.recreationalflying.com/forums/topic/38915-started-a-spare-parts-list/?do=getNewComment

 

 

[danny_galaga]

12 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Danny - Where have you been? I have researched this topic exhaustively  You will find much of what I found in your own https://www.recreationalflying.com/forums/topic/38915-started-a-spare-parts-list/?do=getNewCommenthttps://www.recreationalflying.com/forums/topic/38915-started-a-spare-parts-list/?do=getNewComment

 

 

That's the thread I started 😄. From memory no one listed a part number I can just go to Repco or whatever and order it. In regards oil hose, my mechanic sold me what he was using, not cheaply mind you but oh well. It's a blue Pirtek jobbies. This is all the info I gleaned off the hose itself. Not exactly order friendly 😄

 

Pirtek low pressure hi temp LPHT-08 12.7mm (1/2") 21 BAR (304 PSI) C.P MSHA 2G-1C-40C/3 101/22 FCP 12923167

[spenaroo]

The way I see it Skippydiesel.
You have an assumption that price is a large component of the deciding factor - I put more importance on convenience and least risk.
Matching specifications and parts, and finding cheaper alternatives for customers was what I did for a living the last decade.
And I was good enough to have been repeatedly head hunted.

 

I don't shop for fuel on price, I value my time and energy as being more valuable then what I see as a $3 saving once a fortnight.

(5c a liter, on a 60L tank is only $3) I refuel when needed at the most convenient BP or United (personal preference, found shell gave running issues in some motorcycles). oh and for future reference only 91 and 95 has a fuel standard in Australia, 98 just has to meet 95 standards

 

I don't Disagree with your thoughts, 
but I have different thoughts on the issue

 

why do I stick to OEM parts on the Ducati and VW,

because its guaranteed and reliable - it fits, it works, it is correct. there is no questions, no delays

its peace of mind. more then willing to pay that bit extra to not think about it.
this is especially important to me with something like a timing belt that its tried and tested.

 

this peace of mind is more importance to me then risking an aftermarket alternative.

I have seem too many special cases. I agree in the vast majority of times simply getting an equivalent of the same specification will work.

but I have personally seen enough of these outliers and the damage they caused over a decade of being a workshop parts person.
That I personally will not take the risk on a vehicle that I hold in high value. I would rather pay the premium to know its all just going to work.

I've had too much pain with aftermarket manufacturers catalogue's being incorrect with fitments. inaccuracies in models and years, or just flat out wrong.
dealt with enough returns and delays.

 

further to this I gave you the example of the oil and coolant where the specifications are not necessarily the whole story.
Ducati used certain materials in the heads of the 1198 motors, that reacted with existing coolant. they had AGIP make a coolant for them to combat this (after it was an issue - they were fitting replacement heads for a while - they originally used a shell coolant)

now you can use a coolant that has the same rating - like the original shell product. but that doesn't guarantee it uses the same additives to achieve that rating.
very easy to go online and check the specification that coolant lists as meeting (now Ducati specify the lubricants by product not specification, so only the ones used in the factory are in the manuals - not a minimum spec). but that just shows the industry standards it meets for performance not representative of additive packages (here is that 98 Fuel example again - as long as it meets 95, you can add as much detergents as you like)

 

same with the oil. I Highly recommend Motul to everyone, in my opinion it is the best motorcycle oil - just don't use it in a Ducati.
both it and the Recommended Shell advanced ultra meet the JASO MA2 specification and are 15W50.
but still every Ducati I saw that had main bearing issues used Motul, and never saw any of those issues from the bikes running Shell (yet I don't use any other shell product)
P.S. 2000's model Suzuki's would slip the clutch if fully synthetic oils were used - just another example of these idiosycracies

and then you have items like clutch discs, brake pads, brake discs, seals - for which there is no industry specification.
some of these are better then OEM, some much worse. sticking to OEM is the safest bet.

The Vstrom, despite it being a newer bike. like you I prefer the cheaper alternatives because I just don't care as much. if it has an issue its of lower personal value (Ducati has sentimental attachment).
I can afford to write it off as a worst case. Its far easier for me to walk into my local shop and get a K&N then to drive to a Suzuki Dealer. Happy to experiment with performance of parts on it too.

same with the Midget, I can afford for it to be off the road, The Amorok I can't its my daily drive.

I feel like an airplane engine is the last place I would try to save a buck. I'm not confident enough that if it goes Bang I wont get injured
it doesn't align with my personal risk assessment. but obviously yours is different

Edited September 5, 2023 by spenaroo

[skippydiesel]

From your thread - my response (recommendation) to your enquiry;

 

Oil - Gates  GTH - 8 hose from Hydraulink. Be sure to order correct ID for your application.

 

If you want detailed information/rational/argument see Oil Hose/Rotax 912 this Forum

 

If I remember correctly - Pirtek's offering was short on specifications. There was no bend radius and possibly other stuff missing.

 

Note: Gates  GTH-8  now appears to be  8GTH

 

https://abdex.com/products/rubber-hoses/hydraulic/fabric-braid/3-16-gates-braided-hydraulic-hose-wp-psi-500-gth/

 

Gates automotive range, can be purchased though Repco.

 

Gates GTH -8 is classified as an hydraulic/industrial hose  (not stocked by Repco) so must be purchased from other outlets - my local Hydraulink being the one that not only stocked the product but had the best price (at that time)

[danny_galaga]

52 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

From your thread - my response (recommendation) to your enquiry;

 

Oil - Gates  GTH - 8 hose from Hydraulink. Be sure to order correct ID for your application.

 

If you want detailed information/rational/argument see Oil Hose/Rotax 912 this Forum

 

If I remember correctly - Pirtek's offering was short on specifications. There was no bend radius and possibly other stuff missing.

 

Note: Gates  GTH-8  now appears to be  8GTH

 

https://abdex.com/products/rubber-hoses/hydraulic/fabric-braid/3-16-gates-braided-hydraulic-hose-wp-psi-500-gth/

 

Gates automotive range, can be purchased though Repco.

 

Gates GTH -8 is classified as an hydraulic/industrial hose  (not stocked by Repco) so must be purchased from other outlets - my local Hydraulink being the one that not only stocked the product but had the best price (at that time)

Where do I click BUY 🤔

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, spenaroo said:

The way I see it Skippydiesel.
You have an assumption that price is a large component of the deciding factor - I put more importance on convenience and least risk - Price, for most people, is at the very least a significant factor but will never be the deciding one for me.
 

I don't shop for fuel on price, I value my time and energy as being more valuable then what I see as a $3 saving once a fortnight. -  Lucky you - I live by a more frugal philosophy

 

I don't Disagree with your thoughts,  - We probably have a lot in common
 

 

this peace of mind is more importance to me then risking an aftermarket alternative. - I put a Gates serpentine belt & idler  into my Ford Ranger PX - cheaper than Ford OM and I am confident will easily last to the next replacement kilometres.

I have seem too many special cases. I agree in the vast majority of times simply getting an equivalent of the same specification will work.

but I have personally seen enough of these outliers and the damage they caused over a decade of being a workshop parts person.
That I personally will not take the risk on a vehicle that I hold in high value. I would rather pay the premium to know its all just going to work.

I've had too much pain with aftermarket manufacturers catalogue's being incorrect with fitments. inaccuracies in models and years, or just flat out wrong.
dealt with enough returns and delays. - I bow to your experience but have sufficient confidence in my 6 decades of working on equipment, to enable me to make reasonable good value judgements

 

further to this I gave you the example of the oil and coolant where the specifications are not necessarily the whole story.
Ducati used certain materials in the heads of the 1198 motors, that reacted with existing coolant. they had AGIP make a coolant for them to combat this (after it was an issue - they were fitting replacement heads for a while - they originally used a shell coolant)

now you can use a coolant that has the same rating - like the original shell product. but that doesn't guarantee it uses the same additives to achieve that rating.
very easy to go online and check the specification that coolant lists as meeting (now Ducati specify the lubricants by product not specification, so only the ones used in the factory are in the manuals - not a minimum spec). but that just shows the industry standards it meets for performance not representative of additive packages (here is that 98 Fuel example again - as long as it meets 95, you can add as much detergents as you like) - There will always be an exception to any rule. This is no reason to "throw the baby out with the bathwater"

 

same with the oil. I Highly recommend Motul to everyone, in my opinion it is the best motorcycle oil - just don't use it in a Ducati.
both it and the Recommended Shell advanced ultra meet the JASO MA2 specification and are 15W50.
but still every Ducati I saw that had main bearing issues used Motul, and never saw any of those issues from the bikes running Shell (yet I don't use any other shell product)
P.S. 2000's model Suzuki's would slip the clutch if fully synthetic oils were used - just another example of these idiosycracies - This & the Ducati example above, is where research comes in, which includes Forums like this one. If there are those who have been down the track before you, listen & take note of their experience/opinion.

 

On oils - It doesn't seem to happen as much these days but in the past, there have been numerous instances where an oil, thought to be compatible (recommended by maker) with a particular engine, has been found to have unfortunate impacts eg glazed bores, sludge accumulation, sticking piston rings, etc. If the technicians / scientists can make a mistake, then so can we but that's life.

and then you have items like clutch discs, brake pads, brake discs, seals - for which there is no industry specification.
some of these are better then OEM, some much worse. sticking to OEM is the safest bet. - If you know the after market one to be a better product, why shoot your self in the foot (pocket)?

The Vstrom, despite it being a newer bike. like you I prefer the cheaper alternatives because I just don't care as much. if it has an issue its of lower personal value (Ducati has sentimental attachment).
I can afford to write it off as a worst case. Its far easier for me to walk into my local shop and get a K&N then to drive to a Suzuki Dealer. Happy to experiment with performance of parts on it too. - You see I cant treat any piece of equipment as potential "write off" - even my mowers, pumps, tractor, compressors, etc (all preloved) are treated with obsessive care. All a serviced on time, using quality materials (that I try to get for the best price)

same with the Midget, I can afford for it to be off the road, The Amorok I can't its my daily drive. - In my 20's, I acquired an all genuine "Bug Eyed Fright" - great fun on a shoe string, almost nil suspension travel, worst courting car I ever came across. Made a tidy profit, when I passed it on to some playboy ,who promptly wrote it off. 

I feel like an airplane engine is the last place I would try to save a buck. I'm not confident enough that if it goes Bang I wont get injured - I prefer to not spend an unnecessary buck, when I can save it and spend it on some other enhancement to my aircraft ( she seems to suck up  a fair slice of my little  pile).
it doesn't align with my personal risk assessment. but obviously yours is different - Apparently !🙃

For the most part, once I have found the product that I believe will suit,  I operate on the basis of a minimum of 3 quotes. As an employee, never on a great salary, this life long approach, allows for my expensive indulgences/hobbies, only one of which is owning/flying a small aircraft. 

[Blueadventures]

The Rotax ones a few years back were made in Austria and probably still made there.  In the UK they had available unbranded oil filters made on the same production line runs that Rotax were made; about 1/3 the price.  I bought 6 of them as they had been in use for 10 years and no issue and were sourced by a Rotax dealer back then.  Had a sticker on them and made in Austria on bottom.  Just for info and may still be available.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Blueadventures

[danny_galaga]

All academic now, bought a genuine one. I have no idea if I'll even keep the plane long enough to buy another filter...

 

But for those trying to match it, it turns out the Rotax filter has an anti something valve (anti drain?) I think.

Edited September 6, 2023 by danny_galaga

[facthunter]

So do lots of others. .  Nev