skippydiesel Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 XPS oil, has been in the research pipeline for a while. Originally only approved for the 912iS engine, it is now approved for the whole range of Rotax 4/'s XPS is a full synthetic, rather than a blend (AeroShell Sport +4) and has supposedly been developed especially to suit high engine temperatures in the 912iS. XPS will only be available through Rotax dealerships, unlike AeroShell Sport +4 which was available from a wide range of suppliers (including Shell). When a company restricts supply to their own dealership network this is most often accompanied by a high price tag (lack of market competition). AeroShell Sport +4 will continue (for now) as a Rotax recommended oil, so there will be choice and I have no doubt that this well tried/ trusted oil will still be used well in to the future, at least by those of us with carbureted engines. A little before my time - Rotax allowed a range of, mainly motorcycle, oils for use in their engines. With the arrival off AeroShell Sport +4 this approval was largely withdrawn. Rotax do not specifically recomend AeroShell Sport +4 (or any oil), they do require the use of "... oil with RON 424 classification" , is a Rotax specific specification. When Googled only comes up with , you guessed it, AeroShell Sport +4 Pilots flying in high ambient temperatures, may be attracted to the benefits that full synthetic oils offer. This may be a good time to review what other (non approved) synthetic oils are suitable for Rotax 912 carburettor engines. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Getting an oil suitable for the redrive as well makes it further complicated. Then there's the lead bit if you use 100LL. IF you don't use an oil approved by the maker I don't know where you would stand. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfGnome Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 Nev, is the lead issue with 100LL exacerbated or ameliorated by the purely synthetic oil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) Most synthetics these days are made from LPG mainly for consistency and stability and mix with Dynosaur oil I doubt oils have anything to deal with lead other than changing it. Copper lead bearings leave lead in the oil especially when sulphur is present to form acid. Aero leaded fuels used a "BROMINE additive to scour the lead out of the engine and that left a whitish film in the exhaust pipe. I don't know if that is still allowed. Gears and clutches need special additives if they are involved. NOTE change to BROMINE Nev Edited February 25 by facthunter clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 25 Author Share Posted February 25 (edited) 22 hours ago, facthunter said: Getting an oil suitable for the redrive as well makes it further complicated. Then there's the lead bit if you use 100LL. IF you don't use an oil approved by the maker I don't know where you would stand. Nev Thanks Nev - I point out that Rotax have, over time, dropped their earlier, much broader, oil recommendation. My early operators document oil specification, allows for a wide range of, mainly motorcycle, oils to be used. I have no doubt that the new XPS meets Rotax engine needs handsomely. I also have no doubt that the engine owner will pay handsomely for a product that is only available from Rotax. One more lack of doubt - there will be crankcase oils, available on the open market, that will also meet Rotax specifications (especially if not using leaded fuel) that will be a lot cheaper. Certified aircraft & RAA factory built/available for hire/training may be obliged to use XPS however there is a large "experimental" fleet that can use whatever oil they deem suitable. Of the latter, most owners would try for an oil meting Rotax specifications (now no longer published) - hence my: "This may be a good time to review what other (non approved) synthetic oils are suitable for Rotax 912 carburettor engines." PS - It's not so much the "redrive" ie integrated gearbox, requiring a suitable oil, as the clutch mechanism contained therein. If memory serves, the early recommendation was to avoid oils containing friction modifiers. Edited February 25 by skippydiesel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 I mentioned "GEARS & Clutches". I have nothing to add.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 "Branded" oils produced by companies are quite often over-priced - but not always. Purchasers have the security of knowing that the engine manufacturer backs it, and has had input into the oil QC and ingredients. Many manufacturers know full well the oils and lubricants market is crowded, so they usually don't try to make the financial killing on oils that they would, on their exclusive individual parts and components. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 IF you want to lose all your faith in the Brainpower of the average person , visit forums on OILS.. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) My brand of snake oil is a pretty good seller. The slipperiest of any of them. Edited February 26 by onetrack 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 (edited) 8 hours ago, onetrack said: "Branded" oils produced by companies are quite often over-priced - but not always. Purchasers have the security of knowing that the engine manufacturer backs it, and has had input into the oil QC and ingredients. Many manufacturers know full well the oils and lubricants market is crowded, so they usually don't try to make the financial killing on oils that they would, on their exclusive individual parts and components. I always try to use the oil recommended by the manufacturer - so far all my vehicle/engines have recommended oils produced by mainstream makers like Shell/Castrol/BP, not their own brand (like Rotax & XPS). Often, over many years of ownership, the original recommended oil is discontinued. I talk to the oil companies technical advisors, to get their recommendation on a suitable alternative. On rare occasions, I have switched brands, usually due to cost of the original or recommended substitute becoming increasingly costly. In these cases, I go to some lengths to source a less costly alternative, that still meets the original specifications, again from a reputable brand. In short - I do not slavishly follow the engine manufacturer's recommendation, rather I keep an eye on cost/availability and act accordingly. Unfortunatly, Rotax seems to have gradually dropped any reference to general market oil specifications - it's now a secret in house spec "RON 424 classification" that has no equivalent/cross reference to the general oil supply market. Edited February 26 by skippydiesel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 That can happen when the motor's output is raised. Back a while, Superbiken4 was fine. Where do you sit when you run something not approved by the maker?. No different I suppose from modifying one or fitting a clone. You couldn't use it for training or maybe in CTA. and your Insurer may not like it. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnieM Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) 21 hours ago, onetrack said: "Branded" oils produced by companies are quite often over-priced - but not always. Purchasers have the security of knowing that the engine manufacturer backs it, and has had input into the oil QC and ingredients. Many manufacturers know full well the oils and lubricants market is crowded, so they usually don't try to make the financial killing on oils that they would, on their exclusive individual parts and components. Actually, no. I had a friend who worked for Caltex then Shell. Even tho they tried, distributors in Australia/NZ would go out of their way to say absolutely nothing. Oil formulations here have a number of differences to even the same branded product in the manufacturers home company. I agree with going with premium brands. It seems like most 10-40 or 5-50 oils (synth or semi-synth) would work in Rotaxs, obviously no friction modifiers so the car oils are out but all the premium motorcycle oils should work. Unfotunately the mc oils are as expensive as Aeroshell. Big question; what is the legal situation ? No guesses please. Edited February 26 by BurnieM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 "Big question; what is the legal situation ? No guesses please." Unless there is legislation to force owners to use only recommended service products (a very dark day for democracy/personal freedom) it will always be a guess/speculation, simply because no two scenarios will be the same. My guess 😈 There is no legal position as such. The manufacturer (Rotax) would likely use the failure to use approved service items, as a lever to dismiss warranty or similar claims. In this case it would be up to the claimant to show no relationship between the products used and the failure. Who has deep enough pockets to take on BRP? In the highly unlikly event of a loss/injury claim - the claimant would have to demonstrate that the oil used was a major contributor to the incident, that resulting in the loss/injury - very doubtful. This sort of speculation is paranoia. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueadventures Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 As oil discussion is for Rotax and they take less than 3 litres (usually 2.8lts) at $19 per litre so only $57 every 50 hours; therefore even if your alternate oil choice is free it's only a $57 saving every 50 hours. No worth any searching for an alternate product especially considering the gearbox internals needs regarding oil properties. In my opinion anyone running a Rotax 912 and chooses to run oil other than recommended needs an upper cut, clip under the ear or even a kick up the arse to wake them up. 1 2 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 How much is piece of mind worth?. Rotax are not likely to advise or supply, a crook oil for their motors. Nev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny_galaga Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) I agree with the last two posts. The recommended oil isn't that expensive in the scheme of things. On insurance, since it seems no one seems to investigate anything in ra Aus aircraft, if your Rotax use is in such a plane, it seems you could run it with cooking oil and no one would care... (Note: do NOT use cooking oil in your engine) Edited February 27 by danny_galaga 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area-51 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Maybe the new secret oil has tiny programmed microbots in the oil that know how many hours total time the engine has done and upon reaching TBO they expand with diamond spikes that gouge out all the bearings and journals and score the bores to ruin 🤷🏼♂️ 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Area-51 - Skippy is more concerned those bots are going to gouge out his wallet - and wallet protection is much more important than engine protection. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 The thing is you can wreck a gearbox, hypoid drive, Ceramic clutch, non roller cam followers Constant speed joints, worm drives etc by using the wrong lubricant... RACE motors don't use the regular oils either.. Since about 1970 engine oils don't suit gearboxes either but some still get the oil on the filler and think it will work today. The catalytic Converter put an end to using many of those OLD oils because the additives would kill the converter.. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 3 hours ago, Blueadventures said: As oil discussion is for Rotax and they take less than 3 litres (usually 2.8lts) at $19 per litre so only $57 every 50 hours; therefore even if your alternate oil choice is free it's only a $57 saving every 50 hours. No worth any searching for an alternate product especially considering the gearbox internals needs regarding oil properties. In my opinion anyone running a Rotax 912 and chooses to run oil other than recommended needs an upper cut, clip under the ear or even a kick up the arse to wake them up. Oooooooh! "I is a shakin in ma boots" - you should try reading my earlier posts - This is not about using the wrong oil, it's about a progression from, back in the day, Rotax being open with the oil standards, allowing 912 owners to source an appropriate oil from the available market, through to the present day, when it would seem to be only recommending its in house (secret standard) XPS, making it impossible to research an equivalent oil from the wider market. Neither is it about cost - its about cost effectiveness & freedom of choice - clearly concepts beyond your bulging wallet to understand. I have always used AeroShell Sport +4 - true only the one producer but its availability from a number of retailers, introduces at least a little competition, keeping the price to (a guess) around double that of an equivalent motorcycle oil. Owners of early 912's (before Aeroshell Sport +4) used various motorcycle oils, without ill effect. Many continue to do so to this day - that is their choice, as it should be. It will be interesting to see at what price XPS will be available for, in Australia. My guess $30-40/L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area-51 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 $40/L sounds about right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Anyhow someone will be making this Rotax Oil FOR Rotax I wonder why SHELL couldn't , didn't get asked to, or wouldn't. Shell have pioneered a lot of oil types. They were the first to produce a synthetic worm drive oil. Their previous shell aero plus 4 was specifically for the 912- 914 . Their Superbike 4 meaning 4 STROKE was used by many before that and was engine-gearbox clutch compatible. Don't forget these motors have Hard faced cam followers, NOT Rollers and that becomes a critical LUBE point. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnieM Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) XPS is a BRP house brand that they appear to have been using to market oil for their other engines for 20+ years. Looks like Lubetech (US) had some earlier manufacturing involvment but now appears to be sourced from Castrol (US). This new aviation oil was developed for the high temps of the 916 but has now been approved for all Rotax aviation 4 stroke engines. A full synthetic should handle higher temps without breaking down but I do not see it lowering temps at all. I always understood semi-synths were used in aviation for their ability to suspend lead (to allow for avgas use) and a lot of the development and testing seems to be about reproducing this feature in the full synthetics additives package. Odd, unless you have a really significant temperature problem. Edited February 27 by BurnieM 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Synthetic by itself can't alter things like Lead. It would take an additive to do that and additives get used up in the process where they are handling a specific problem chemically. Synthetic is more consistent and is free of the contaminants you get in Mineral oils. nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 "Longlife' (Extended Drain) oils have a lot more additives and consequently Less OIL. It's NOT better oil.. Polymers make oil thicker. Gear oils especially for Hypoid bevels Has special anti scuffing additives. Used to be SCL. Sulphur Chlorine Lead which would wreck a Bronze worm gear in no time. Oils ain't oils as they say. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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