justinjsinclair Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 (edited) 37 minutes ago, RFguy said: 37 minutes ago, RFguy said: Edited April 16 by justinjsinclair Pressed send Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 OK, I will say this…..our sector of Aviation is near the bottom of the ladder, and everything that is part of it has an economic that is reasonably cost viable.so far. Seeing what Rotax are up to, and their support attitude these days. I would not use one of their new engines. Consider IF Lycoming made a drop in engine to replace a Jabiru? It would cost a mint, and probably run forever, so we have to accept what we can afford. I would put a new Jabiru in an aircraft, before a Rotax……because of support alone. My dreamy choice would be a Verner Radial, only because I have Dinosaur attitude to everything in my life. I would rather ride in a Super Constellation before a 787 or 380. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 (edited) All this talk about how reliable gen4 are . People that own gen1 pushrod motors have the same reliability as well. It was the models between those 2 where things went wrong. The little 2200a in my xair is only up to 381 hrs after 20 years. There are no major repairs in the logbook right back to when it was new. It has always been on avgas so if Rf guy is right maybe I better switch to mogas. Edited April 16 by BrendAn 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinjsinclair Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 (edited) Hi Glen, I guess we need to compare like with like, I know you are well versed in Jabs 😅 and are Lucid, intelligent and a great thinker. I feel the Avgas point is a bit mute, Rotax’s hate Avgas due the gearbox bearings and other stuff so as a general rule where you find a Rotax you will find a ULP pump, commercial operators get a road tax rebate so that and the price of Avgas vs PULP pretty quickly pays for a fuel truck/ tank. I have seen Jabirus run on Avgas with no issues although I did hear of an odd batch of Avgas in SA that caused a few issues with lots of operators including big 520 and 550 engines. One J160 I look after has now 800 hours, always run on Avgas, always run hard and no issues so far. But I think you will find everyone agrees PULP is the go. Speaking to the Jabiru Engine shop, the oil pressure issues seem to be solved, every time I have a technical question the Jab team are awesome. They are patient, listen and always have a solution. As far as mechanical costs go I feel the Jabiru is way in front per hour. At the moment a Rotax goes for 2000hrs (assuming 80-100ho) and price is roughly 40k, a jabiru is 20k and needs a top at 1000. Current jabiru pricing is 2200 Engine Gen 4 ** Top End Overhaul from $5,200 ** Full Overhaul from $6,300 ** Bulk Strip from $6,300 **Does not include replacement of substantial items ie. crank, cam , conrods, cylinders and heads. Engines must still be running.. so in actual fact the Gen4 is cheaper to overhaul every 1000 hours by about $15,000. The new Jab warranty is a really good deal too. We all know the Rotax is awesome but man the parts prices are eye watering, to be honest I think they are not far off a 0235 cost now. Don’t forget hoses, radiators, dual carbs, oil, yadda yadda yadda. The jab only takes 2.2/lt of oil and the filters are 7-$16.00, the 2 yearly hose replacement is $10-100 depending if you want to us new fire sleeve. The plugs are cheap as well. Well all know the Jab airframe is awesome, sure it’s not as light to fly as some of the European stuff but its maintenance is essentially nil. Tyres, bolts, and that’s about it. What don’t understand I why we have people running old engines, older than your Mitsubishi Magna and we whinge about support. These people don’t ring the factory and rely on what written here on the internet. All jab engines maintained to spec and run to spec are a good thing, New heads are available now. I don’t know if anyone has tried to rebuild a new engine lately but just finding a 0235 cylinder is a miracle. I used to own a Cessna 402 which is for sale again. The aircraft with running engines is $90,000.00, it had $300,000 spent in it 600 hours ago and it needs another $400,000.00 spent in it now to make it legal to carry pax. Thats stuff is pricing 402’s above C441 conquests now 😫 I think there was even a reference to TBO’s being some made up factor to gain profit. 😬. I challenge any pilot here to fly NVFR SYD-CBR, MEL-LST, CNS- TSV or Adelaide - Ceduna on an engine with more than 20% over TBO. it’s amazing how your appetite for risk changes when it’s your arse in the seat at night when that engine gives a little cough 😰 It sounds like I am a Jabiru agent but I am not, I just worry that a new glider is now $600,000.00 a new RAAus rocket ship is $500,000 and a reasonable trainer is $2-400,000.00. How any flying school makes money is beyond me but if we don't support local then we will all end up the poorer. i would really like to sell my J160 Gen 4 to get a 230 with Gen 4 but the prices now reflect the appeal of the airframe. Justin Edited April 16 by justinjsinclair 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 The flying schools at Coffs & South Grafton ran their Gen2 & 3 engines solely on Avgas & still made the 2000 hour TBO so with correct and timely maintenance they were OK. Whether heads came off for decokes or whatever during that time I could not comment on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 ‘How any flying school makes money is beyond me but if we don't support local then we will all end up the poorer.’ Some flying schools, spec up their training aircraft with top shelf options, which makes their ROI expensive. A school I want to transfer to, after Covid had upspec Foxbats, full glass cockpits etc etc. The hourly cost was $100 per hour more the I was paying, that flying school is no longer in business 🤢 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 12 minutes ago, jackc said: ‘How any flying school makes money is beyond me but if we don't support local then we will all end up the poorer.’ Some flying schools, spec up their training aircraft with top shelf options, which makes their ROI expensive. A school I want to transfer to, after Covid had upspec Foxbats, full glass cockpits etc etc. The hourly cost was $100 per hour more the I was paying, that flying school is no longer in business 🤢 So what happened to your J230? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 (edited) mmm Agree 100% Justin with everything you have written. Yes no issue with Jab airframe- its awesome. yeah (IMO) the AVGAS de-coke is needed every 400 hours worst case, for a jab on AVGAS. a solid day's work for a four cylinder. It doesn't actually require any parts as such, except for rings, since you're likely to change out the rings if cleaning the ring lands. You might be able to do it without pulling the pistons off the conrods..... Actually a running hot jab engine might burn the avgas better.... so one's mileage may vary. run hard and hot, a gen4 is probably capable of running hot enough (since it doesnt have to live in fear of head recession) of being better with the avgas gunk. I dunno. As usual, engines that are babied tend to look worse. Jabiru Rings are cheap. $35/set Rotax rings $270/set. WTF ????!!!! Yes $270/set ! like I said, Rotax is good if you dont have to fix anything..... Jabiru factory is always helpful I think people need to watch quality of oil filters. there have been a few split. Dunno what the source was of them. Edited April 16 by RFguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 Justin, what EGTs in cruise are you running on your Gen4 ? Rotax engines tends to run leaner , a little more economical on fuel. In the past Jabiru has tended to err on the rich side to stop valves dropping ..... and have been playing around with the jetting forever. This rich running exacerbated the avgas buildup issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 9 minutes ago, turboplanner said: So what happened to your J230? Still got it, just installed Avmap and Becker second COM radio along with Skyecho. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinjsinclair Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 7 minutes ago, RFguy said: Justin, what EGTs in cruise are you running on your Gen4 ? Rotax engines tends to run leaner , a little more economical on fuel. In the past Jabiru has tended to err on the rich side to stop valves dropping ..... and have been playing around with the jetting forever. This rich running exacerbated the avgas buildup issues. It runs mid 3-320 in the green most of the time, on a long run at 5-7000 it’s probably a bit cool at 2850, circuits in 34’c still way below yellow. it interesting what you say about filters. Years ago when I ran a GC8 rally car we had issues with non Subaru oil filters. So we only ever used OEM, yes it was a pita to find them. That’s why I buy Jab ones. If it splits and it’s black with a jab sign on it then I have a valid argument. If it’s Ryco from my motor parts supplier I am I trouble. As an aside the oil runs too cool. I think this winter I will be blocking up 50% of the cooler. And yes I know we don’t get winter here in QLD 🤣 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 3 hours ago, RFguy said: mmm Agree 100% Justin with everything you have written. Yes no issue with Jab airframe- its awesome. yeah (IMO) the AVGAS de-coke is needed every 400 hours worst case, for a jab on AVGAS. a solid day's work for a four cylinder. It doesn't actually require any parts as such, except for rings, since you're likely to change out the rings if cleaning the ring lands. You might be able to do it without pulling the pistons off the conrods..... Actually a running hot jab engine might burn the avgas better.... so one's mileage may vary. run hard and hot, a gen4 is probably capable of running hot enough (since it doesnt have to live in fear of head recession) of being better with the avgas gunk. I dunno. As usual, engines that are babied tend to look worse. Jabiru Rings are cheap. $35/set Rotax rings $270/set. WTF ????!!!! Yes $270/set ! like I said, Rotax is good if you dont have to fix anything..... Jabiru factory is always helpful I think people need to watch quality of oil filters. there have been a few split. Dunno what the source was of them. the older jab rings are vn commodore 40 thou over . 3.8 v6 . rotax are probably designed and made for the one engine model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 so should i stay on avgas or not. maybe run it on unleaded occasionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippydiesel Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 4 hours ago, jackc said: OK, I will say this…..our sector of Aviation is near the bottom of the ladder, and everything that is part of it has an economic that is reasonably cost viable.so far. Seeing what Rotax are up to, and their support attitude these days. I would not use one of their new engines. Consider IF Lycoming made a drop in engine to replace a Jabiru? It would cost a mint, and probably run forever, so we have to accept what we can afford. I would put a new Jabiru in an aircraft, before a Rotax……because of support alone. My dreamy choice would be a Verner Radial, only because I have Dinosaur attitude to everything in my life. I would rather ride in a Super Constellation before a 787 or 380. Maaaate! This sort of emotive, unsupported, rhetoric belongs in a pulpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 Skippy, did you take your meds today 🤩 it’s just an opinion…..I am not forecasting the end of Aviation 🤩 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area-51 Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 Somebody should build an affordable small two seat LSA trainer that has a small cheap to o/h two stroke engine and open cockpit; something that weighs about 170kg BEW, Vs about 20kt Va about 55kt... You can fly at 200kt for an hour in a big circle, or you can fly at 50kt for an hour in a little circle; its still an hour of flying... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 They are out there……in the U.S.A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat6065 Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 They tried that with cars…. No one bought them… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendAn Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 58 minutes ago, Area-51 said: Somebody should build an affordable small two seat LSA trainer that has a small cheap to o/h two stroke engine and open cockpit; something that weighs about 170kg BEW, Vs about 20kt Va about 55kt... You can fly at 200kt for an hour in a big circle, or you can fly at 50kt for an hour in a little circle; its still an hour of flying... wasn't that called a thruster. the first certified 2 seat ultralight in the world. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 8 hours ago, BrendAn said: so should i stay on avgas or not. maybe run it on unleaded occasionally. fresh ULP98. if in plastic container, or place where it can breath oxygen, ditch it or use it within a month. always filter and water check. The octane doesnt fall with time- what happens is some components react with oxygen and form non soluble solids.... Avgas only if nothing else is available, or the heads run red hot (>165 cruise, >180 climb) . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat6065 Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 Again… what do these conversations… as mind tingling as they are…. Have to do with a Jabiru Gen 4? you can start a new thread if you have a new idea…. Or have I just embarrassed myself again 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 Gen4 is good. I'm only selling my J230 because I have the big Piper, and need something like a Savannah as a 2nd aircraft . I do have a Thruster in the works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat6065 Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 Aaaaaand…. ULP98 does drop octane if left open as the lighter components such as C4’s flash off… it may be marginal but true non the less good 98 can have a positive cleaning effect too… helping to remove some of those leaded deposits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat6065 Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 Ooh!!!….. now I’m doing it!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFguy Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 interesting.... Drop octane? -Not true according to the chemist at BP and I have it in writing . Octane increases slightly briefly. Volatiles burn off, playing havoc with controlling the vapour pressure / vapourization behaviour. the forming non soluble solids is the problematic one I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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