Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, robinsm said:

just give 3 calls...downwind, base, and final gives everyone your location.   Much safer.   After va few close calls when only one call given, I always use 3.  You cant wear your radio out and 3 calls can save your a...s

 

 

I feel that, giving plenty of notice ie time to understand / look out / find & be found by other aircraft is important for me and other pilots in the air or about to take-off.

 

To this end;

• I always do an  "Inbound"  - If high traffic activity, may do an additional call.
• Followed by an "Overhead The Field" - I do not like   joining the circuit , without  having an opportunity to assess traffic (on ground/in air) so unless an emergency, do not do Straight Ins / Circuit Joins, before an Overhead.
• Having "Joined the Circuit" the number & position of calls is determined by traffic density / position & intention of other aircraft

All my calls include; Position in Space (Location / Altitude) & Intention.

 

If I am unable to locate a potentially conflicting aircraft - more calls may be made.

 

I believe that there is too little timely / useful radio communication. This results in accidents.😈

[facthunter]

As a general statement, RADIOs and procedures could be Much Improved. You need situational awareness, Training and self discipline to make it work.  Visual CONFIRMATION is still the priority.. Nev

[aro]

26 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You are on an anti straight in Crusade. There ARE times when it's best. Particularly if the extra plane is much Faster.

If you read before posting you'll find I did make that point:

1 hour ago, aro said:

If you're a faster aircraft and can't fit into the existing circuit fair enough

Realistically, if you would normally do a 1500' circuit you would be merging with 1000' traffic on short final so a straight in approach is no different.

 

I'm on a crusade against people who do straight in approaches because that way everyone else has to stay out of their way and they can pretend other aircraft don't exist. Everyone else can extend their circuit so they can save a few minutes.

[facthunter]

I don't think you fully acknowledge the safety aspect of it which I consider paramount.  Most larger aircraft have relatively Poor visibility from their cockpits and much faster airspeed on base and final where collision is most likely when in a circuit. They are not usually as manouverable either and have WAKE turbulence particularly at their  times at LOW speed (for them. which could be 2 x  or more of your groundspeed on final easily.  Nev

[Roundsounds]

6 hours ago, aro said:

I disagree.

 

Downwind calls are useful for anyone joining the circuit on downwind or crosswind. For everyone else, base calls are better.

 

The point of maximum conflict is at the threshold of the runway. Downwind calls are too early with too much variation in time to the threshold to figure out whether there is a conflict.

 

They're useless for someone on a straight in because at that point they're trying to see an aircraft front-on at a distance of 5-8 miles.

 

A base call (with intentions) is much easier to figure out if a conflict exists, and there is plenty of time to resolve it.

A base call allows a following aircraft to adjust their spacing if you're doing a full-stop.

A base call allows a departing aircraft to judge if they have time to take off.

A base call allows you to figure out how many aircraft are ahead of you, without the likelihood that other aircraft will join the circuit in front of the aircraft that just called.

A base call allows an aircraft on a straight in to judge whether a conflict really exists (if they are short final probably not, if they are a 2-3 miles out there will probably be a conflict and they need to take action).

ARO, have you read the latest guidance material from CASA on non-towered airport ops?

Do you jot down traffic to help form / maintain SA or rely totally on continuous broadcasts?

 

Link to AC 91-10

[aro]

I have read it, but the guidance in the last few years has been a bit wishy-washy. Make a broadcast if there is a risk of collision? Who would have thought...

 

I don't write down traffic, but try to keep a picture in my head. In the circuit you need to keep track of the aircraft in front, the aircraft behind and anyone joining the circuit. Separation in the circuit needs to be visual, not by radio. Radio just alerts you that you need to be looking for someone, and where.

 

I will listen to the CTAF from around 15 miles out and build up a picture, with the help of traffic on Avplan. Eg. there might be a 172 in the circuit showing up on ADSB, and a 152 and Jabiru with no ADSB and another 172 showing on ADSB inbound. So I know how many aircraft I'm looking for. The  radio calls let you keep pretty much up to date - if e.g. the 172 calls a full stop I can remove it from my mental picture.

 

When I get close I need to figure out where everyone is in the circuit, and plan the join from there. Typically I overfly and look for an aircraft on upwind/crosswind, descend and join the circuit behind them. Other times everyone is on late downwind/base/final, which means separation isn't an issue for a normal e.g. crosswind join. Other inbound aircraft can be harder to spot, so if there is someone with a similar ETA I typically try to maintain vertical separation until I see them.

 

The important thing is to figure out how many aircraft are there, and actually see the most important aircraft e.g. other aircraft on downwind when you are joining the circuit. Joining the circuit is the time when a downwind call is quite useful.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

13 minutes ago, aro said:

I have read it, but the guidance in the last few years has been a bit wishy-washy. Make a broadcast if there is a risk of collision? Who would have thought...

 

I don't write down traffic, but try to keep a picture in my head. In the circuit you need to keep track of the aircraft in front, the aircraft behind and anyone joining the circuit. Separation in the circuit needs to be visual, not by radio. Radio just alerts you that you need to be looking for someone, and where.

 

I will listen to the CTAF from around 15 miles out and build up a picture, with the help of traffic on Avplan. Eg. there might be a 172 in the circuit showing up on ADSB, and a 152 and Jabiru with no ADSB and another 172 showing on ADSB inbound. So I know how many aircraft I'm looking for. The  radio calls let you keep pretty much up to date - if e.g. the 172 calls a full stop I can remove it from my mental picture.

 

When I get close I need to figure out where everyone is in the circuit, and plan the join from there. Typically I overfly and look for an aircraft on upwind/crosswind, descend and join the circuit behind them. Other times everyone is on late downwind/base/final, which means separation isn't an issue for a normal e.g. crosswind join. Other inbound aircraft can be harder to spot, so if there is someone with a similar ETA I typically try to maintain vertical separation until I see them.

 

The important thing is to figure out how many aircraft are there, and actually see the most important aircraft e.g. other aircraft on downwind when you are joining the circuit. Joining the circuit is the time when a downwind call is quite useful.

 

 

That’s not how you maintain SA, no wonder you need constant broadcasts. You cannot maintain a mental picture without the aid of a list of traffic and their details. 

[aro]

4 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

You cannot maintain a mental picture without the aid of a list of traffic and their details

Maybe you can't. I'm not saying don't keep a list, just telling you what works for me. I don't know what constant broadcasts you are referring to. Most people seem to do what was taught years ago, which is:

- inbound

- taxying

- rolling i.e. takeoff

- joining the circuit

- turning base, with intentions.

Plus, often:

- downwind, which was added as a local recommendation when the airfield got very busy and there were multiple conflicts between aircraft in the circuit and trying to join.

 

That doesn't seem like constant broadcasts. Without those calls, where exactly do you get your list of traffic?

 

[Moneybox]

7 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

ARO, have you read the latest guidance material from CASA on non-towered airport ops?

Do you jot down traffic to help form / maintain SA or rely totally on continuous broadcasts?

 

Link to AC 91-10

 

I just read AC 91-10. I was taught to do a down wind call while training at Jandakot in controlled airspace but along with aro, all his same list of calls apart from turning base. Even when given advice from the tower on other aircraft in the vicinity sometimes it was very difficult to spot them. One call seems a little slim when you're used to first contacting Jandakot Ground before start and taxiing, then changing radio frequency and making subsequent communication with the tower for the takeoff flight and landing before returning to Jandakot Ground for taxiing.

 

I guess it's a bit hard to make multiple calls to deaf ears. When flying from Esperance, one call before commencing taxiing was all that was made before commencing circuits because there was never anybody around, however we radioed further instructions to Myrup Traffic stating our position and intentions if we left or returned to the circuit.

 

I'm all new to flying but the more I look into it the more I see the need for all aircraft to be equipped with ADSB IN and OUT.

[skippydiesel]

15 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

That’s not how you maintain SA, no wonder you need constant broadcasts. You cannot maintain a mental picture without the aid of a list of traffic and their details. 

As a single pilot, within the 10Nm broadcast area, managing my aircraft descent, engine condition, etc there is no way I could make a  " ....list of traffic and their details."  

 

My focus is on, what I perceive to be the most important, incoming information - aircraft position & intention. From this I try to locate the aircraft that have the potential for conflict. 

 

Call sign/Make & model are secondary to this process. If needs be I will make a Traffic and or an aircraft: aircraft call.

 

Pilots need to understand that the first order of business is safety of your aircraft, followed by other aircraft, followed by communication. (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate)

 

Communication in the Non Controlled environment; Its great if you can be totally professional (phraseology/list/etc) BUT far more important is making contact in clear unambiguous language ie don't get hung up on trying to be professional, when something as simple as "The Oaks High wing  turning late Base 36 - Are you intending to turn Final?" might prevent you turning in-front of a very nervous student.😈

[Roundsounds]

42 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

As a single pilot, within the 10Nm broadcast area, managing my aircraft descent, engine condition, etc there is no way I could make a  " ....list of traffic and their details."  

 

My focus is on, what I perceive to be the most important, incoming information - aircraft position & intention. From this I try to locate the aircraft that have the potential for conflict. 

 

Call sign/Make & model are secondary to this process. If needs be I will make a Traffic and or an aircraft: aircraft call.

 

Pilots need to understand that the first order of business is safety of your aircraft, followed by other aircraft, followed by communication. (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate)

 

Communication in the Non Controlled environment; Its great if you can be totally professional (phraseology/list/etc) BUT far more important is making contact in clear unambiguous language ie don't get hung up on trying to be professional, when something as simple as "The Oaks High wing  turning late Base 36 - Are you intending to turn Final?" might prevent you turning in-front of a very nervous student.😈

Sounds like you need some training in Situational Awareness. A big part of SA is projecting what threats you may encounter. 

[Garfly]

21 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

Sounds like you need some training in Situational Awareness. A big part of SA is projecting what threats you may encounter. 

 

Just because he does it his way doesn't mean he "needs some training".

[BurnieM]

Knowing exactly were every aircraft is within 10nm of the field but forgetting about your speed or altitude is not wise.

All decision making involves information filtering.

 

We should be allowing for more than one correct action/response in a constantly changing environment.

 

[facthunter]

Changing situations need  positive and effective reassessment of risk..Situational awareness. Clear decision making.  Make the Best of what you have going for you which at times may not be much.  Stay in Control. Aviate. Nev

[Roundsounds]

No wonder the rate of airprox events and collisions are on the increase. If a person cannot jot down basic traffic information, form and maintain a mental picture of traffic whilst flying they need to hand in their licence or certificate. I would not let a student pilot go solo until they could demonstrate these basic skills. These skills aren’t being taught by the many half baked instructors currently operating in the industry. 

[skippydiesel]

31 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

No wonder the rate of airprox events and collisions are on the increase. If a person cannot jot down basic traffic information, form and maintain a mental picture of traffic whilst flying they need to hand in their licence or certificate. I would not let a student pilot go solo until they could demonstrate these basic skills. These skills aren’t being taught by the many half baked instructors currently operating in the industry. 

No offence intended my Friend - Could your attitude come from flying a GA aircraft (Piper  Cub)?

 

When I trained in GA, your advice/comments, is exactly what I did.  I was usually flying a Cessna 172. Compared with what I fly now (a Sonex Legacy) an absolute pussy cat of stability (whats your Piper like?).

 

I could set up a 172 in Straight-&- Level and aside from the occasional small adjustment for fuel burn, it would continue, hands & feet off,  on the set (non autopilot) heading & Alt seemingly indefinitely - not so a Sonex.

 

A 172 can be easily set up to do a nice steady 500ft descent/climb, hands & feet off - no way can this be done in a Sonex - feet & hands are buss at all times.

 

Sonex are designed as an aerobatic aircraft (Neutrally Stable) will depart  S&L within seconds of removing your hand from the stick OR  reaching across the cockpit to change a map/etc. Combine this with an astonishing rate of descent/climb  - you don't want to be writing essays.

 

Many RA level aircraft will have similar flight characteristics.

 

😈

Edited 11 hours ago by skippydiesel

[Roundsounds]

14 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

No offence intended my Friend - Could your attitude come from flying a GA aircraft (Piper  Cub)?

 

When I trained in GA, your advice/comments, is exactly what I did.  I was usually flying a Cessna 172. Compared with what I fly now (a Sonex Legacy) an absolute pussy cat of stability (whats your Piper like?).

 

I could set up a 172 in Straight-&- Level and aside from the occasional small adjustment for fuel burn, it would continue, hands & feet off,  on the set (non autopilot) heading & Alt seemingly indefinitely - not so a Sonex.

 

A 172 can be easily set up to do a nice steady 500ft descent/climb, hands & feet off - no way can this be done in a Sonex - feet & hands are buss at all times.

 

Sonex are designed as an aerobatic aircraft (Neutrally Stable) will depart  S&L within seconds of removing your hand from the stick OR  reaching across the cockpit to change a map/etc. Combine this with an astonishing rate of descent/climb  - you don't want to be writing essays.

 

Many RA level aircraft will have similar flight characteristics.

 

😈

No offence taken, BTW I hold both GA and RAA quals. I doubt your Sonex would be any more difficult to operate whilst jotting down basic traffic details than a Tiger Moth or Pitts S1?

I’m not suggesting anyone write an essay, it is easy to jot down call sign, type, position and time on a kneepad, it’s about being prepared. Develop your own shorthand, the process of jotting down the details helps with memory. Most things happen in 6 min blocks - a circuit typically takes 6 mins, the average bug smasher takes 6 mins to fly 10NM. This helps develop / maintain the mental picture, which in turn aids in anticipating any potential conflicts - a key aspect of SA. The blind reliance on PEDs for flight planning and navigation has resulted in basic SA skills being lost. I have witnessed this happen over the past 25 years, which coincides with an increase in midair collisions in Class G airspace. 

[pmccarthy]

I have never in my life written down traffic notes, now 55 years of flying. Awareness is a mental picture. You shouldn’t be looking at notes.

[aro]

2 hours ago, Roundsounds said:

it is easy to jot down call sign, type, position and time on a kneepad, it’s about being prepared. Develop your own shorthand, the process of jotting down the details helps with memory. Most things happen in 6 min blocks - a circuit typically takes 6 mins, the average bug smasher takes 6 mins to fly 10NM

I wouldn't call this situational awareness. Situational awareness is knowing who is an immediate threat and where they are right now, who is a possible threat and who can be ignored. In a busy circuit things might be changing every 15-30 seconds, not in 6 minute blocks.

 

A real life example, you are taking off for circuits and at 400' you hear a broadcast that ABC is joining crosswind. At 500' another broadcast, DEF is 10 miles west inbound.

 

Situational awareness is knowing that you can ignore DEF for now, but you need to be looking for ABC as soon as you turn crosswind to avoid possible conflict on downwind. It's not appropriate to be head down writing down callsigns at that time of the flight. Maybe after you are established on downwind having already identified and made sure of separation from ABC.

[Moneybox]

I can't see how you could keep written notes on moving aircraft? At Jandakot we've had up to eight training aircraft in the circuit at any one time but that's only on runway 6R/24L. Meanwhile 6L/24R have other traffic (often bigger and faster) arriving and leaving. When taking off and on final care must be taken to not stray into the path of aircraft on 6L/24R. I have enough to do without putting pen to paper.

[Roundsounds]

1 hour ago, Moneybox said:

I can't see how you could keep written notes on moving aircraft? At Jandakot we've had up to eight training aircraft in the circuit at any one time but that's only on runway 6R/24L. Meanwhile 6L/24R have other traffic (often bigger and faster) arriving and leaving. When taking off and on final care must be taken to not stray into the path of aircraft on 6L/24R. I have enough to do without putting pen to paper.

This discussion is about Class G airports.

Legislation only allows 6 aircraft in the circuit at a class d airport.

[Roundsounds]

1 hour ago, aro said:

I wouldn't call this situational awareness. Situational awareness is knowing who is an immediate threat and where they are right now, who is a possible threat and who can be ignored. In a busy circuit things might be changing every 15-30 seconds, not in 6 minute blocks.

 

A real life example, you are taking off for circuits and at 400' you hear a broadcast that ABC is joining crosswind. At 500' another broadcast, DEF is 10 miles west inbound.

 

Situational awareness is knowing that you can ignore DEF for now, but you need to be looking for ABC as soon as you turn crosswind to avoid possible conflict on downwind. It's not appropriate to be head down writing down callsigns at that time of the flight. Maybe after you are established on downwind having already identified and made sure of separation from ABC.

Assuming you’d been monitoring the CTAF after engine start you’d have heard ABC make their inbound call. It would have taken more than 6 mins to start, taxi, complete pre-takeoff checks and get airborne.
Why would you turn crosswind before sighting ABC?

Situational awareness in the aviation context by definition is about gathering information, comprehending the information and projecting forward to avoid surprises like the one you’ve given as an example. CASA guidance on SA