ahlocks Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Enjoy young Motza! Hard work deserves a reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 There's a bit of stirring going on Motzart, some people may get their kicks out of it, but there's a bit of an effort being made here to create confusion. Trouble is it could result in an accident down the track. Oooh, you're good Turbz. Try as I might, I just can't resist the bait.... Confusion? We've discussed differences in phrasing that are in popular use and the merits of it using that differing phrasing in a rational manner, including examples. We've also established who the authority is for standard phrasing, what that standard phrasing is, and how that standard is promulgated. The rules are freely available and written in plain english. What people do with that information is up to them. It's not my job to enforce compliance. As for getting kicks out of it, Ok. I confess! I looove kicking the pedestals out from underneath self proclaimed authoritative 'experts' who don't do their research properly and then sprout c:censored:p as fact. So, I suppose that this is 'game on' over a another storm in a teacup...i_dunno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Please don't let me stop the games. The "All stations" call would usually stay in the base Act, and be superseded by the "Wagga Wagga Traffic" start if the 2005 changes had passed through Parliament as an Amendment#, which could explain the difference, otherwise as we previously found out the CAR takes precedence and John Gardon's comment would be right. I couldn't find anything relating to the 2005 package, but someone else may be able to enlighten us. # very frustrating because over time you finish up with an Act with all the original wording, and many amendments until eventually they are all incorporated in the one document again as a new Act Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeK Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I'm just a simple soul, but I reckon "All Stations" is just that - anyone who can hear the call. "XXXX" Traffic is only directed at traffic in the vicinity of XXXX. EDIT: just found the AIP reference - AIP GEN3.4 page 32: "All Stations" - when a pilot/ATC broadcasts general information. "XXXX Traffic" - when a pilot broadcasts location specific general information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Oh Tubz! You're as bad as I am with this pedantic stuff... First and foremost, I recognise the excellent work that John puts into the RAA web site and believe that he got it right when he developed the site. Hence why I've kept me yap shut... Until now. CAR 1988 82A sets out who is responsible for setting the standards (CASA) and how the standards are to be published to the great unwashed. (us) 99A reinforces that AIP and notams are the authoritative reference and applies a penalty for non compliance (with an interesting defence provision) ENR 1. GENERAL RULES AND PROCEDURES - effective 12 MAR 09 (i.e. Current.) Spells out the procedure that CASA (the regulating authority) wants to happen and where. 21. RADIO COMMUNICATION AND NAVIGATION REQUIREMENTS 21.1 Summary of Report and Broadcast Requirements 21.1.1 In this section: a. ‘Report’ means a mandatory radio report from an aircraft to the appropriate ATS unit. b. ‘Broadcast’ means a radio broadcast from an aircraft on the appropriate frequency to provide advisory traffic information to other aircraft. We've already discussed what the format is, so no need to repeat that. So we'll flick along to the disputed part 68; 68.4 Use of the collective “ALL STATIONS” must precede a general information broadcast. They've already specified how they want a traffic broadcast to be phrased, so now they're specifying how to phrase a GENERAL message. i.e. "All stations. sigmet just received advising that the storm in a tea cup is just that" Cheers! P.S Just saw your post Graeme and concur. We are just making things far more difficult for ourselves than is warranted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Thanks for the research Ahlocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Yup!. I agree with you GraemeK. The underlying feature of this discussion is THAT. information out there relating to OPERATIONAL matters is not clear and unambiguous. The ACT should not be a working document for operators in the field.. You should not have to be a Lawyer to fly an aeroplane without fear of "doing something wrong". Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Motza. Congratulations, best wishes for an interesting and rewarding career, trying to stuff some sense into a mob like us must have well prepared you for instructing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Haha.. thanx yenn.. Ive learned tonnes from this site.. This thread is a perfect example.. And i think 99% of dudes on here are very sensible.. Unfortunatly being unsensible in this game ends up precluding people from participating in discussions of any kind, other than with saint peter..;) cheers and thanx again.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Thanks for the research Ahlocks Ouch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Ouch! What's wrong now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 OK i don't use a radio these days in my toy but did back when working on DZs. so compare the following example that was the way i was taught with the way being required today "all traffic elderslie,--- kilo zulu papa rolls 27 elderslie" power up and go (we're parked on the threshold no taxi involved) once airborne cleaned up & climb power set broadcast the following "all traffic elderslie,--- zulu papa a twin otter is airborne this time off 27 ---on climb to flight level 140 remaining within 5 nautical miles--- estimate top of climb at 16 ---will call again this frequency 2 minutes before drop ---zulu papa elderslie" The --- is a one second pause, radio stays keyed during this pause. so here i am uncurrent in radio yak. how would you do this transmission today ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 aarrggghhh... my pet hate.... the "rolls" call... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 my pet hate was getting 'standby' from sydney when asking for clearance to fl140 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 aarrggghhh... my pet hate.... the "rolls" call... "rolling" would make you happy then would it? Not picking at all, just interested:big_grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Very good.. straight to the top of the class..:thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahlocks Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 What's wrong now? Not a thing Tubz...I thought that you'd crafted a very clever NESian type of response and it tickled my funny bone. :thumb_up: Ooops! :confused: ...took me serious hat off too early. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Very good.. straight to the top of the class..:thumb_up: That's good!:thumb_up: At least I'm rolling down the right track....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 :laugh:Haha...good onya tomo...:thumb_up:...when your "rolling" at least your IN the acft, not watching it from the sidelines (rolls, turns, enters and backtracks, joins)...;)...ya dig?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Will you still talk to us now you're a CFI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Haha.. of course.. might just have to be alittle more carefull what i say;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cloudsuck Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 aarrggghhh... my pet hate.... the "rolls" call... My pet hate is people who get upset about calls made in the third person. It is actually quicker and there is nowhere in regs which prohibits it. eg. Alpha Bravo Charlie turns base 04 or Alpha Bravo Charlie is turning base 04. Either way, doesn't make much difference to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 oh dear......... Are you in the aircraft?? or watching it?? Theres many, many....many words that aren't Mentioned in the rules... Infact ALL the words in the english language that aren't part of standardised radio phraseology could be assumed to be "the wrong ones".. Do we need to have the entire dictionary reproduced in the rules for standardised phraseology to preclude them all??...or do we just say that THIS is the right way to say something...anything is else is .....wrong....Be as unprofessional as you like... but remeber the world is listening...Both your examples were phrased incorrectly.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Correct technique. Should be encouraged as it aids understanding and clarity. It is safer. That is good enough for me. The variations are not clever and do not sound like commercial pilots. At least I hope not. You don't say ABC "IS" either. It is "ABC or something1234 ,Turning base". It isn't sissy to do it right, and it can be pretty cowboy the way it is done sometimes. Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cloudsuck Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 oh dear......... Are you in the aircraft?? or watching it??Theres many, many....many words that aren't Mentioned in the rules... Infact ALL the words in the english language that aren't part of standardised radio phraseology could be assumed to be "the wrong ones".. Do we need to have the entire dictionary reproduced in the rules for standardised phraseology to preclude them all??...or do we just say that THIS is the right way to say something...anything is else is .....wrong....Be as unprofessional as you like... but remeber the world is listening...Both your examples were phrased incorrectly.. I am most definitely in my aircraft as my aircraft turns down wind. Maybe you could enlighten us further? As far as the English language goes, and I'm no expert but as an example, I recall a post by someone on this forum entitled, "Ya know what I hate?". If you want to get that picky Motz, perhaps you should go back and have a look at some (most) of your own posts for unprofessional use of language. As far as saying this is right or this is wrong, where do you get your information about what is right or wrong if it is not published? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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