Landing

[DarkSarcasm]

Hey gang,

 

Apparantly I have now completed all pre-solo maneuvers but my landings still suck (my term, not my FI's) so solo is still of a bit of a way off...I think I've managed to identify the main problems I'm having with the landings so I figured I'd put it on here and see if anyone has any tips... (and yes I have been talking to my instructor about it but I figured more tips/opinions couldn't exactly hurt)

 

I'm flying out of YLIL which has a grass strip and I tend to have some issues trying to see the shape of the runway on approach (since it is a grass runway in the middle of a grass field)...does anyone have any tips for distinguishing the runway from the field so I can better see it's shape? It's a bit confusing to try and see the shape of the runway to try and see if I'm too high/low when I'm trying to distinguish it from the grass field surrounding it...any ideas?

 

My second main problem is when I'm holding off above the runway, I keep misjudging how high/low above the runway I am and either touchdown before I want to or attempt to touchdown only to discover I'm not where I thought I was! I am trying to look at the horizon at the end of the runway but it is possible that I'm not looking far ahead enough... I know this is basically an exercise in developing judgment and I know that I am generally slow in developing judgment, you should've seen me trying to learn to park when I was learning to drive, I was atrocious But yeah, I guess, are there any cues that you use to tell how high you are or is it just a judgment thing I need to develop?

 

I keep telling myself that I'll be extra proud of myself once I master landings after all this effort but right now it half seems like I'll never get there....it's frustrating because I know what I'm doing wrong, I just can't seem to get the hang of it!

 

Cheers :)

 

 

[Guest mike_perth]

I dont do many grass landings mainly bitumne or gravel (ppl) but on gravel the same thing occurs and the only thing that makes my landings any good is looking not at the horizon but the complete other end of the field anr rely completley on peripheral vision to judge the height - I have to conciously say to myself at about 50ft look at the end of the field.....look at the end of the field and then continue my approach once Ive remided myself I usually pull off a good landing (usually!!)

 

As has been said one day it will just click and youll realise that your doing all of the things your instructor has taught you to do only your doing them all at once - when I was trying to nail my landings Id ask the instructor for tips on omproving things he kept giving me tips and eventually when I was doing everything he told me including my self brief at the same time my landings worked!!

 

Good Luck

 

 

[GraemeK]

As far as distinguishing the runway goes, at YLIL right now it's not too bad, with the brown cut grass between the strips providing a good guide. But sometimes it's a bit hard, and just occasionally I've lined up on the grass at the side instead of the strip itself before I realised my mistake .

 

Like you, my problem ATM is round out and flare. I find, even though I know I should be looking at the far end, I can't help looking just in front at the last minute. Also, I'm in too much of a hurry to get the thing on the ground instead of holding off. I'm slowly getting better, however.

 

As far as where to look, I concentrate on on the left hand gable marker at the far end - this also helps me get the aircraft pointing directly down the runway at touchdown.

 

Like Dexter, there's been times when I've thought I'd never get the hang of it, and was going backwards and ready to throw the towel in. But eventually it gets better. At least now my instructor says my landings are getting very consistent (I think he meant consistently bad , but at least they're consistent) so now I can work on improving them.

 

Oh, and another thing I find helps is as you're approaching the threshold, start thinking through in advance what you're going to do for the round out and flare - ie get ahead of the plane.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

just occasionally I've lined up on the grass at the side instead of the strip itself before I realised my mistake .

I've done that too...

 

Also, I'm in too much of a hurry to get the thing on the ground instead of holding off..

That's one of my problems too, I think once I get to the hold off part I tend to think "well I'm here, time to land" rather than just letting things flow and letting it land when it wants to.

 

I will get the hang of landings eventually and then I'll probably wonder why it took me so long

 

 

[Yenn]

Sit in the plane at the threshold and get someone to push down on the tail until it is in roughly the landing attitude. Than you look out the front and what you see is what you want to see as you finish the flare.

 

Not knowing Lilydale I can't help with the recognition problem.

 

I am sure it will all come together for you soon and you will wonder why you found it so hard. Relax a bit may help.

 

 

[Relfy]

I remember the thing that daunted me was in the hold-off, and more particularly in cross wind situations, when the aircraft would start moving across the strip away from where i was anticipating touch down. I worked out that I was stopping the flying and going into taxi mode before touch down.

 

Once I got the rudder and aileron inputs worked out on touch down, i found that I was flying the a/c onto the runway surface and beyond the touch-down which greatly improved my landings.

 

It will all click soon and keep at it as you will enjoy the feeling of a great cross wind landing when you grease it on. Also, I found that once I started getting frustrated, heading out of the circuit and just having a fly was a great way to re-energise!

 

 

[turboplanner]

You're about on a par with approaching solo - screwing up every second landing, and really starting to be self critical - it'll come together.

 

Good idea of Yenn's but I think it's just the problem we all have fine tuning all the parts until they become one.

 

With the grass look for something you aren't looking at now - a sharp line, a difference in colour or a particular fence post at the upwind end.

 

Then again, you do find the invisible potholes..........

 

 

[Guest 172M]

I have to agree with all of the above, one day the "picture" will become embeded and you will wonder why you concerned your self with your perceived inabilities. I did all of my training an a grass strip (similar to YLIL) many moons ago, and had problems with the "picture" I was passed on the crusty 60 yo CFI (ex RAAF) and he tried a new tack,To get a look at the correct "picture" we did standard approach, at about 50"AGL he said my arcraft all I want you to do is look out the front,The aiming point passed he said look up at the fence at the end of the strip, pitched up into the flair ,and then trickled on a bit of power and held it in ground effect all the way up the strip and simply said this is what you should see! It worked for me and that was about 2600 hrs ago and yes, I still duff the odd one. (usually in front of a critical audience!)Don't worry you WILL get it together and say to yourself sh*t, why so much grief!!

 

FWIW

 

 

[stanzahero]

Sugestions

 

It's a bit confusing to try and see the shape of the runway to try and see if I'm too high/low when I'm trying to distinguish it from the grass field surrounding it...any ideas?

Try drought... worked well in Horsham....

 

I keep misjudging how high/low above the runway I am

I started by using a tall object as a reference. eg the main windsock, or a hanger roof.

 

By keeping an eye on it, as well as the approach, I could tell how close I was to the ground by the the object and the horizon. Once it got to a predetermined point, I'd say to myself "slow decent, flare" and I'd be where I needed to be. With practice I didn't need the reference any more.

 

This technique was used by the poster and absolutely no responsibility is taken by the forum or the poster for any suggestions in this post. Drought is dangerous if not handled correctly.

 

You'll get the hang of it.

 

Stanzahero

 

 

[GraemeK]

Yep - I found the "strip run" in ground effect very useful for getting a feel for the hold off - although not all instructors use it unfortunately. I had a couple of lessons with Darky's instructor where he got me to do this and it made a big difference.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

I did that too and the one time I actually managed it, it worked well. Other than that, I ended up more scared about hitting the ground that I did before I tried it!

 

I'm planning to get my FI to demonstrate a landing again next lesson so I can just sit there and try and get the picture in my head

 

Happily, I am getting to the point where I can 'feel' if something's wrong (or I think I can)...I just tend to doubt that I'm right about what's wrong (need to work on my PIC skills!)

 

I think it's also trying to manage the workload during the landing too. You're there going 'shape of strip?, staying in place on windscreen?, aim point? oh cr*p what's my airspeed!, centreline?, argh!'

 

I'm hoping people here still forget to turn the carby heat off on final, I don't think I've remembered once i_dunno In my defence, the black handle blends in so I can't see the stupid thing! I told my instructor last week that they (Jabiru) should've made the handle yellow so us poor students could see it (and he agreed)...maybe I should write to Jabiru?

 

 

[Guest Walter Buschor]

Landings will all " come together " . It is surprising though that sometimes we all stuff up. At the Gympie point-landing fun competition I flew like an absolute novice even though I normally " grease " them in. It just goes to show that it does not always go to plan and it was gentle reminder that I can still stuff up.

 

The thing though is to fly the plane all the way to the ground and to " stay in charge " .

 

I used to stiffen up just before touch-down and " wait " for the wheels to make contact.

 

This often results in some drift starting or the perfect landing at 2,3,4,5, or so feet with the resulting thump! not good thumb_down. Just stay relaxed ! as the others said - it will all come together soon enough. :thumb_up:

 

happy practicing

 

Walter

 

 

[turboplanner]

I'm hoping people here still forget to turn the carby heat off on final, I don't think I've remembered once

Never forgotten in my life Darky, well once, well a few times, well every second time, well what's the black knob business.

 

For me it wasn't the black knob, it was human factors - the work load builds up and it goes off the radar.

 

I solved it (I think) by always pulling carb heat at a set height.....so I'm watching the altimeter, the height comes up, and the association prompts me to pull carb heat.

 

I still think your reactions are normal for this stage so relax.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

I used to stiffen up just before touch-down and " wait " for the wheels to make contact.

This often results in some drift starting or the perfect landing at 2,3,4,5, or so feet with the resulting thump! not good

I think I tend to do that a little...or I think we're higher than we are and get a surprise when we touchdown when I'm not expecting it i_dunno

 

It helps to hear lots of people had problems, I keep thinking 'you've been in the circuit for 13 hours now, surely you must be able to get the hang of it!'

 

 

[Guest 172M]

Trust your judgment, If you do stuff it up, the FI is going to know well in advance(if he/she doesn't they shouldn't be there!) and sort it, the majority of FI's well let you go as long as the situation remains tenable, as you will not learn if you cannot push the envelope and look for solutions.The learning curve can be long, arduous and sometimes BLO*DY frustrating, as all people have a take up rate that differs.Don't critique yourself unnecessarily and trust your own ability to succeed. Some things are probable. Most things are possible!

 

 

[Admin]

Don't know if this will help Darky but if you think you have a problem spare a thought for those like me who are blind in one eye and thus have no 3rd dimension to distinguish height, length or depth at all.

 

I took 27 hrs to get my Certificate as I just could not get the flare height correct. My instructor finally twigged to what was going on so for an entire 1hr lesson doing tight circuits he got me to look out the side window at a tree that was close by and then back and forth between the tree and the runway whilst he landed the aircraft.

 

This gave me a great idea on what the runway needed to look like when it was the right time to flare and over time I got very good at it at almost all different types of strips.

 

I say almost all types as there was one very different occasion a couple of years ago...and at the time I was with a Singapore Airlines A340 Capt with more hrs in the book than anyone I knew.

 

I was flying my CT coming into Avalon on the main sealed runway. There was an F1-11 parked on the first exit with his engine running and very very close to the runway. Now this bothered me very so slightly...in fact it made me almost make a mess of myself as I thought what would happen if he throttled up just as I was landing going past him in the CT - I would be last seen rolling over and over and over for miles and miles and miles and perhaps wouldn't stop till I got to Geelong.

 

So you could say I was slightly distracted to begin with but I came in over the threshold gently easing her down when I suddenly thought 'now start the flare'...the runway and the white lines look like they should at the time to start flaring.

 

Suddenly there was a massive sink down and down and down to an ending thump on the strip. Nobody told me that the main Avalon strip is also a Space Shuttle secondary landing zone and the strip is like miles wide and the white lines are just about as wide as my CT was.

 

The picture that I had stored in my mind of what a strip should look like to start flaring to a person that has no 3rd dimension had let me down and as they always say about flying....You never stop learning!

 

 

[Guest 172M]

If you have been in the circuit for 13 hours or so, maybe it is time you bugged out and did a bit of upper air work or just bashed around the patch for an hour or two, take the pressure off and start enjoying the freedom again. You will come back in with a fresh mind fresh attitude and probably kick an ass? or two!

 

FWIW

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

If you have been in the circuit for 13 hours or so, maybe it is time you bugged out and did a bit of upper air work or just bashed around the patch for an hour or two, take the pressure off and start enjoying the freedom again. You will come back in with a fresh mind fresh attitude and probably kick an ass? or two!FWIW

Last Saturday we ditched the circuit and did steep turns in the training area which was FUN :) So yeah, I agree tis good to get out of the circuit :)

 

Ian, I am definitely impressed you haven't let your eyesight slow you down. And you got your certificate at 27 hours...I'm at 21.4 and I haven't even soloed yet, so I'm even more impressed :big_grin:

 

Nobody told me that the main Avalon strip is also a Space Shuttle secondary landing zone and the strip is like miles wide and the white lines are just about as wide as my CT was.

Do we get many space shuttles landing at Avalon? :confused:

 

 

[Admin]

Do we get many space shuttles landing at Avalon? :confused:

What that means is that NASA has indicated that Avalon is capable of handling a Shuttle landing if there was ever a need to use it as one in an emergency

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

 

[Guest 172M]

Some one is blowing it somewhere, the only two alternates for the Shuttle are Amberley and Darwin(both Mil) YMAV is used by SQ & QAfor ILS training +Jetstar & some international freight in comercial ops,Min RWY length for SS is around 5K mtrs! YMAV is abt 3K

 

 

[Admin]

Interesting though, I was told that Avalon is an emergency strip for the shuttle however just had a look in the ERSA and found runway lengths:

 

Avalon: 3048m

 

Melb: 3657m

 

Syd: 3962m

 

So not that sure now

 

 

[Admin]

Some one is blowing it somewhere, the only two alternates for the Shuttle are Amberley and Darwin(both Mil) YMAV is used by SQ & QAfor ILS training +Jetstar & some international freight in comercial ops,Min RWY length for SS is around 5K mtrs! YMAV is abt 3K

The min for SS is a lot less then 5,000m as the shuttle landing facility is around max 4,500m

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttle_Landing_Facility

 

 

[Guest 172M]

Maybe you should look at the actuals, KSC is around 4600+300 paved overun, 4900 call it 5? also has a high frictional rated surface so they can use max braking without locking up(yep it does have ALB) but @ 250kts + landing speed a.5 of a sec lockup is not acceptable as it akin to skating on ice.Further if you care to look at the loading data of the SS if it brings a partial payload back it cannot use KSC it is then re directected to Edwards AFB 9100Mtrs yep plenty of margin, With a 100T (brick) glider

 

I would take the margin!

 

FWIW, and YMAV doesn't fit ,unless it was the last resort! wet wet wet or goodnight Lara!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Never mind about the fine detail guys - Darky, head for Avalon!