Aldo

David No I'm not meaning to take the p1ss and it wasn't my intention to offend. "You guy's" is all and sundry myself included, you quoted the first bit of what I said but left out the part that was more relevant which was "multiple pages of speculation" once again I'm included in that speculative group based on what I've heard, seen or in the case of weather related incidents what the known conditions were on the day, any additional information to support the investigation I believe would be beneficial to all and would reduce the amount of speculation. I didn't say rag & tube was gone, but what it was and how it was operated 30 years ago has gone. I actually did my RAA conversion certificate in a drifter and still fly one regularly (I happen to think they are one of the nicest light aircraft to fly) we have two of them in the hanger, I have also done some lessons in a trike which I also enjoy and will continue that when I have the spare time. I don't want to see rag & tube gone but I am part of the RA group who want to be able to fly outside my back yard, many posters here complain about the part of RA that I partake in as the reasons for increased cost and regulation I don't believe this to be the case. I believe the increases cost and regulation is a result of many things, some the organisation is responsible for and others the members are responsible for. I don't complain about any part of RA although I do have views on the level of training and the way in which some exercise the privilege of the certificate. I don't agree that RA should have CTA privilege in its current form (if you want that get a class 2 medical and go GA), you can then fly your RA (with whatever requirements you need) in CTA. Aldo

I don't get you guy's sometimes, most people I know want to have some sort of explanation why there was an accident, if a commercial jet goes down the first thing everyone is after are the ATC logs, FDR's & CVR's. On this and most other forums there ends up being multiple pages of speculation on what and why when there is an accident, a large number of commercial and private vehicles these days have camera's of one form or another installed for this very reason. Camera's would go a long way to helping investigators come to a conclusion which in effect would assist in learning's for everyone, assist in bringing closure to the family members and friends left behind, but I suspect it may also show that we are not as well trained or proficient in aircraft operation as we would like to think we are. I also don't like mandated regulations but until we are not the lead story on the 6 o'clock news several times a year then mandated regulations will continue to happen. Frank, Rag and tube as it was 30 years ago is gone in this country forever be grateful (I am) that we are still allowed to fly the same types today. It is time to move on. You no doubt have a wealth of experience to pass on, that experience is just as relevant in today's recreational flying situation as it was all those years ago. Aldo

I don't own it a very good friend of mine does, we are very fortunate that we are able to use it whenever we like. It is 960 long and we regularly fly a Navajo out of here have had a PC 12 in a couple of times long enough for a King Air. Last count we had 12 aircraft all local guys who like flying and having a good time. I fly out of here most days as I commute to Toowoomba mostly in my J230 or 182. It is the best men's shed I know of and I feel very privileged to be part of it.

Here is ours, council and care flight have used it in emergency situations. Council have never had an issue with the airstrip or any aircraft using it.

Photo Aldo

Thanks Phil I will chase it up and have a read Aldo

Tomo Would be good to catch up again hope everything is going well for you, not much changes here we have about 12 aircraft in the hanger and most get flown every week some additional work to 09/27 now 960m of bitumen 5.5m wide with a metre of gravel either side so can fit the Navajo in without any problems here is a pic been a bit more work since then additional hanger and 4 self contained dongas all built into the one building. Can't find a pic on my IPad will get one off my computer and send through Aldo

Alf My opinion best industry in the world, started on drilling rigs myself ended up project managing installation and commissioning all power systems and drilling equipment on semi's and drill ships for NOV, spent 17 years overseas, Indonesia, Mid East, Burma, Brunei and Singapore plus a few others along the way and now own (with 2 others) a company called Australian Rig Construction (ARC) which is a rental company specialising in fluid management (preventing fluid reaching the ground) among other things, we do all our own R&D build all our equipment in Australia with main customers being QGC, Origin, Santos, Arrow, AGL, Senex, Strike Energy and Shell. We are a little fortunate in this downturn as we mostly target completions and Workover and with CSG this is the long term part of the project but I hope for the sake of a lot of people I know it turns around soon, but have seen downturns before and it always comes back this time will be no different OPEC meeting in June/July will tell the story for the next 6 months, Saudis should reduce production and the price will be back up around $90 good for everyone even if I have to pay $2.20 for Avgas again. If you have the chance catch up with the guys in the morning. Allan

Big gust on late final, the best people to ask with heavies on this site would be Facthunter, Dutchroll or Bennyboy these guys all fly or have flown heavies.

Craig The 230 is pretty benign once you are used to the aircraft, I have over 800 hrs in one and initially they can be a bit of a handful (I came from GA) as they are light and hard to slow down (in the early stages), technique I use with low hrs as below. Mid downwind (runway 2/3 out on the wing) power back to 1800, stick back a little to get you to 80 kts (maintain 1000 AGL) 80 kts first stage of flap and trim for 75 kts. 45 deg over your left shoulder commence base turn (I do oval circuits as that is the way I was taught, rate one turn will get you all the way to final) 500 feet per minute down and 75 kts will get you onto final with about 1 mile to run at 500 agl i.e. 1 minute Undercarriage, pitch and runway clear checks and second stage of flap 65 kts and everything is setup correctly (vary ROD with power and speed with pitch), hold 65 kts to 100 feet and bring the power off, speed over the threshold 60 kts, flare at about 20 feet and hold the nose off and let the aeroplane land itself (don't try and put it on the ground you will run into problems), hold the nose wheel off as long as practical flaps away and brake as required. Once you are competent, confident in your ability and have a few hours under your belt you can bash it in (120 kts) to a mile on a straight in approach and still get it on the ground easily but this will take time and practice. Also I have landed in 15 kts plus cross wind without any problems the 230 is a very nice aeroplane to fly in all configurations you just have to get to know your aeroplane. Hope that helps, I'm not an instructor so take everything I've said with a very big grain of salt, happy flying. Aldo

Alf If you're doing nothing in the morning a couple of guys I know will be into Innaminka in the morning in a King Air SGV (crew change for Beach) they will be happy for a chat (Capt - Mick and FO - Ollie). Who are you working for, I've been oil & gas for close on 30 years started not far from there.

Here is another one

Merv Agree with all of what you are saying, an easier way to explain may be that the stall has everything to do with the angle of relative airflow to the leading edge of the wing (a lot of people don't understand this concept). In the situation that Kaz is talking about at some point in time after the turn the nose had to come up to bleed off the speed that had built up in the turn and this where the stall angle may have been approached (not during the unloaded turn) and if still turning when this happened then the angle of the relative airflow may have changed quite suddenly as would the g loading. Its all about inertia, you may apply all of the control inputs to change direction but the body in motion wants to continue in the original direction it was travelling (the same reason you get a high speed stall). Additional to this is the fact you are doing something you don't normally do and when you look out the front the picture is vastly different to what you are used to and control inputs start happening by instinct to get you back to where it looks like what you know, add to this is that the ground is close and looks to be sliding past due to wind and you have a recipe for disaster. You are able to do an 80 deg banked unloaded turn and never stall the wing this is achieved (as you would be well aware) by rolling in to the desired bank angle and letting the nose go to where it wants to but at some point in time you are going to have to deal with inertia and the relative airflow.

Maj It is a sad day when the aviation community looses an experienced member (or any member for that matter) but it doesn't matter how experienced you are, if you are not able to make the decision not to fly or to turn around before it's too late you shouldn't be flying (I know we have all been in that situation but we shouldn't be is what I'm saying). There have been enough weather, go no go related deaths in this industry for all of us to take more than a second look when it is marginal VFR and scud running is fraught with danger particularly in mountainous terrain. I don't know what the weather was at the crash site but enough people have posted here that it wasn't particularly good. I'm west of the range and the weather wasn't particularly suitable for flying here (but there are no mountains around and lots of open cultivation paddocks if things turn bad) as a general rule if the weather west of the range is not good it will not be better over the range or east of it. I don't know what the cause was (may have been a heart attack) but I'm sure weather will not be off the table anytime soon. Aldo

Lets face it the real safety issue here is knowing when to fly and when not to. Lets look at the facts Mates 60th birthday party Crap weather Have to get there Fly the direct route across a lot of crap terrain (which I wouldn't fly in any single) With all of the above engine and airframe don't matter. All a recepie for disaster Do I know what happened "no" but my opinion for what its worth.

Then go ahead, happy to be corrected, I don't think for one minute that I know it all, I've only been flying for close on 30 years and I learn something new every day. When I said CTA I did mean class "C" those of us that fly other than RA think class "C" when talking CTA sorry if I misled you and others.

Merv, from what I've been told it is the only one (maybe the only one in Qld) but happy to be advised of others, a nicer response would have been "Hey Aldo I know of a couple of others that operate out of CTA and here they are (but I guess that because I don't agree with all you post you couldn't look at it from that point of view)" this is supposed to be about a guy who has asked a question about training organisations.

Squizzyhunter Check out sunshine coast flying school, based out of Maroochydore the only RA school in Australia based in CTA what you learn in that environment will be invaluable in your future flying.

Deb Precisely why I haven't until now made any comment, I own a 230, would buy another, my opinion (and I have a couple of hours under my belt both RA and GA) best RA aircraft on the market. A few people who have had bad experiences (for whatever reason) can't stop bagging them and some on the RA board. What amazes me is that you only ever see about 30 members on this site and there are supposedly 10,000 RA members a very small minority complaining. Jabiru may eventually be the winner out of all this, there won't be a pilot in the world who hasn't heard of them after this all settles down, go try search Rotax aircraft (they don't build one) search Jabiru aircraft and see what you find (all the knockers will say lots for sale) if I find a 230 stupidly priced I would have no hesitation in buying it.

Nev Must have been fun in a 727

Merv Yes I wasn't thinking it is IAS which by the way is normally lower than TAS (these guys normally fly the pole on descent anyway), as far as 50 knot winds go a few weeks ago on downwind into 29 Toowoomba indicating 105 and had a ground speed of 156. Yes during winter regularly fly with 35 to 45 kt tailwinds from home to Toowoomba and also regularly land my Jab in 15 kt crosswinds and it still has more rudder authority available, it's not the wind that's the problem it is the person in the left seat understanding when the conditions exceed their ability or the capability of the aircraft and in that case going somewhere else more suitable. I haven't said my training or flying is any better than anyone else and I'm not about to start now (I just voiced an opinion that I didn't think RA training was stringent enough, like anyone else I'm entitled to an opinion) Other than that I merely made a comment to a low hour student listen to your instructor and let the aeroplane tell you what it needs and believe the picture out the front, you jumped in with the make sure you understand the theory bla bla bla and if it was that easy it would be simple, truth is it is that simple. I just disagreed with your approach, what I forgot to say was make sure you check with the guru of all instructors Merv before you do anything further. I'm pretty well aware that Taree is a CTAF and that the others are class D but cleared through CTA and handed off to tower for a straight in approach makes it a lot easier tower is not going to put us in conflict on final with other aircraft IFR or VFR so not sure what your point is there. Pretty sure that I don't require too much additional training at the moment thanks. Pretty quick rule of thumb while flying for IAS to TAS if you're interested, but you probably already know it IAS + (IAS * .02* Alt) = TAS e.g. 250kt @ 10000 250 + ((250*.02*10) = (TAS) 250 + (5 *10) = 300 so pretty easy to have a GS of 300kt if the wind is up your backside Same applies for all altitudes just add 2% of your IAS per 1000 feet to get TAS, do you teach your students this?

Go back to school and learn the difference between ground speed and TAS. 5 miles a minute is speed over ground so yeah 300 any wonder the students and new pilots have trouble. No exaggeration just repeating what the guys inbound told me on the radio so we could position ourselves not to get in each other's way

Avocet I'm there because I'm travelling to that destination the same as anyone else, pretty hard not to be in the approach path of any aircraft if you're all going to the same place. I didn't learn to fly to stay within 10 miles of where I took off from, I use it as a mode of transport and fly to wherever I have to go.

Merv No radar coverage from 50 miles out and if you don't believe me fly out there yourself and experience it first hand, TCAS is fine if everyone has a transponder (I don't ). You are allowed to do 300 down to 10000 and 250 after that and that is TAS not ground speed. It is all see and avoid and talking on the radio with updated position reports. Not hard if you know what you are doing.

Try half a dozen B350 King Airs (on descent profile) generally up around 300kts (GS) throw in a couple of dash 8's all arriving within 10 to 15 minutes of each other, try slotting your Jab 230 into that mix if you don't know where you or the others are in a CTAF environment without stuffing up the whole show. You had better understand that if you are at ten miles in a 2 mile a minute aircraft and a 350 has just made a 30 mile inbound call he will be all over you in the circuit or on a straight in approach and more to the point the 350 will have a lot of difficulty seeing you. Anyway this is way off topic so I will leave it at that.