Aldo

If you had read and comprehended my post you would have understood where I was coming from, just about every accident we have seen in the last 12 months has been avoidable. To put you in the picture yes I do fly by the rules so that I give myself the best chance of not ending up as a statistic (that's not to say it won't happen). I have had an accident, I wrote off a Comanche 25 years ago but was lucky enough for four (4) of us to walk (run) away, I learnt my lesson that day (and I wasn't being stupid) and have continued to apply those lessons to every flight I make. Aldo

Terrible, but if John's report above is correct then it sounds like it was totally avoidable (I don't recall seeing too many 500 foot trees in Australia), what is anyone doing after a missed approach (or at any time for that matter) turning at a level low enough to clip a tree, is the training that people are receiving that bad or is it just a total neglect for the rules. I know plenty of people will be thinking what a heartless .......... I am, but I'm sick of reading about avoidable accidents. I hope John's report is incorrect and it was just some terrible accident.

Taken just about 10 NM west of Oakey one afternoon with my blackberry.

Bull My sympathy to you (and all people who have lost a family member in this accident) as you have lost a mate but, This is all about AIRMANSHIP a quality which Barry rarely displayed throughout his career, no-one is disputing his ability as a pilot and an exceptional one at that, but the difference between good stick and throttle pilots and good pilots is airmanship. I learnt to fly about 30 years ago and even back then I had a number of people warn me about learning to fly at Hemples as it was a cowboy outfit but I was also told that if you want to learn aero's that is where you should go (after you have learnt to fly elsewhere). If we as pilots continue to ignore the airmanship qualities required to be pilots we will continue to read about dead pilots and passengers in the news and on forums like this one for a long time to come.

It won't be about the length of the runway, there are plenty of places around where 737's operate from that are shorter take a look at Rio (Brazil) domestic for instance (approx. 1100 mts). The intelligent thing to do in this case is to transport the passengers by other means and have the crew fly it off and back to Melbourne or wherever. I can just hear the outcry from this forum (and the media) if they did it with passengers and something went wrong. Just good common sense (risk management in todays language) in my opinion. A job well done by the original crew from all reports.

For those of you who are interested the Blackbird (SR-71) was actually developed by the CIA in conjunction with Lockheed and was originally designated "Oxcart" get hold a book called Area 51 if you want one of the most interesting reads on the development and early operations of the SR-71.

Thanks FT, always nice to see the reaction from the guys that gave us the opportunity to have the life we have today, and some people have the gall to whinge about how bad we have it. Lest We Forget

BP my post wasn't directed at yours but the one from Latrobe Valley.

Maybe the guy was doing asymmetric training and the right (starboard) engine was the CE would make sense to be doing right hand circuits or maybe he was just adhering to the noise abatement procedures listed in the ERSA and avoiding the sensitive area to the south of RW21, BOM records show that the wind would have favoured 21 today for a light twin. I don't know I wasn't there, but just making the statement that some clown was doing the wrong thing without knowing the full story is not that informative.

Would need to know the complete story here, on the surface bad airmanship - yes. Digging a little deeper lets say the oil pressure dropped off the clock (life becomes a little stressful after that) even if you are bright enough to cross check the temp (want to get this girl on the ground), guy/girl calls left base not sure of runway, if you only have one runway then only two (2) places you need to be looking to find them and they've already said they are unfamiliar. Not bad if they are in an emergency or semi-emergency situation, pretty poor if they were planning to fly there. Remember - Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Getting the aircraft safely on the ground is the most important consideration.

Frank Not sure that I will get you to do my costing's but be happy to have you do my invoicing (haha) I fly a Jab 230, plan 26 lts/hr same oil consumption (30 cents/hr) and 120 kts (26*2)+(0.30) = $52.30/2 (seats) = $26.15/120 kts = $0.2179/nm or approx. 22 cents/nm

Mag Drop The best method for anything is to be logical & organised and do the same thing each time you fly. Myself I use a foolscap folder, under the clip I have the plan (on top) followed by any en route notes that I think will be relevant (frequencies, distance to run for frequency & level changes, levels, runway directions etc.) with the weather including TAF's at the bottom. Write as many notes as you can before you get in the aeroplane it will make it much easier. I try to fold my charts in such a way that you only need to have an A5 size open at any one time and so that I can flick over the fold to continue the route (not always possible) and store them in the plastic pocket on the inside cover of the folder with your start point on the open page, WAC on top then VTC/VNC/ERC etc. (don't carry more than you need) I draw the routes directly on the charts and highlight them with a highlighter (during your NAV training it is amazing how difficult it is to find the route you have drawn on the chart with all the other lines on the chart), charts are cheap compared to being totally overloaded during your training, use route markers (I use 6 min markers as that's what I was taught but find something that you are comfortable with and use it every time). I'm not as tall as you but I find that I'm able to put the folder between myself and the door and it is easy to get access to, always wear a shirt with breast pockets, carry two (2) pens and a pencil, your wiz wheel, ruler & protractor will easily fit into the plastic pocket on the folder also. In RA I fly a Jab 230 Just my opinion, enjoy your flying.

Mac For mine you would be better off going up the inland route to Moree (YMOR) then across to Warwick (YWCK) through Cunningham's Gap across to Boonah then to Hec Field, its shorter by 7 miles and a lot less time over the tiger country and you miss all the control zones. I have attached a couple of pdf's for reference. Don't rely on my route planning just for info. Domestic Yarra - Hec.PDF En-route Yarra - Hec.PDF Domestic Yarra - Hec.PDF En-route Yarra - Hec.PDF Domestic Yarra - Hec.PDF En-route Yarra - Hec.PDF

I'm only speaking about the industry in which I work, I have no knowledge of others and how they operate and I don't have the spare time to find out. If it is no longer the responsibility of the PIC then who do I go to to get my JRA done before I go flying (by the way I should then be safe ha F'ing ha), this thinking is why we now have so many people that can't think for themselves. My CFI/instructer from 30 years ago is no more responsible for my actions than the guy who lives next door. If as a responsible/irresponsible pilot you neglect to contact the operator of the airport to which you wish to fly to then it is still your fault - not someone elses. I can't think of too many airports where a volunteer is able to just go dig a ditch across the runway without telling too many others. Really you can find a reason to blame someone else for anything that you do, but the sooner we all take responsibility for our own actions the better off we will all be. Not at all if as PIC you don't fully ensure that the aircraft is airworthy and the place you are flying it to is suitable, then you desreve what you get.

Very interesting to read the posts in this thread and find that very few people understand the actual logic behind safety & HF, anyone out there who thinks safety/HF is there to protect the worker/pilot has their head so far up their backside it isn't funny and you really need to take a look at what actually happens. Neither safety nor HF is there to protect the worker/pilot it is there to protect the company/regulator this is why you sign/do the test/induction to say that you have understood/passed, the information that you have been presented with, from that point onwards it is your responsibility to comply with what was in those documents/exams. This doesn't prevent accidents it just covers the company/regulator when the accident happens (unless of course it is due to negligence on the part of the company/regulator) I have worked in oil/gas for the last 25 years (flying for 30), onshore, offshore and construction and we don't have any fewer accidents now than we did 25 years ago, in fact we probably have more now than we did when I started, why (apart from the fact that there are more people working in the industry and flying than before)? Common sense - no longer applicable (i.e. doesn't exist in many cases), no longer allowed to use the term in relation to safe operations. JRA's, JHA's, step back 5 x 5, take 5's, SWMS, whatever you want to call them are a complete waste of time due to the fact that once completed the majority of people think they are safe and the unexpected is exactly that, they didn't even consider it as we covered all possible scenario's in the pre job meeting. We now apply all situations to the dumbest person on site/in the air, this has the effect on the normal person to not fully partake in the assessments. To get back to flying Flying is a manulitative skill (i.e. the more we do the better we get) so we are at the mercy of what we learn, doing what we like. I don't know anyone who wants to die, so why do we get ourselves into situations in which this is the most likely outcome - confidence/overconfidence & peer/passenger pressure. To fly well we require confidence, to gain confidence we need to practice/fly in situations that are at the limit of our abilities - i.e. we improve, when we do, the next time we are presented with the same situation we know that we have done this before and therefore we continue, thinking this will be no worse than the last time (if we do this without first having an out we are heading for disaster). The problem with this method is that sometimes we are not able to deal with the situation or are not able to make the decision to deal with the situation early enough that is at our limit or beyond and it ends in disaster, are we able to prevent this - yes & no - we need to understand when we are at the limit of our abilities and change our expected result - this is HF or airmanship. Is the CFI, CASA or RAA responsible for our actions - NO, the only person responsible for our actions are ourselves, the sooner everyone understands this the safer all will be. To put this into practice with a couple of examples. I fly into and out of Toowoomba on almost a daily basis (approximately 50 minute flight each way) When am I most likely to run out of fuel on a flight? Ans. doing something I do every day i.e during my daily run in and out of Toowoomba. How do I reduce this risk - I will not do any more than two (2) return flights without refuelling (full tanks) even though I have enough for three (3) return flights including reserves and I also use 15% variable reserve - airmanship/HF. [*]When am I most likely to encounter an inadvertant IMC situation? Ans. doing something I do every day i.e. during my daily run in and out of Toowoomba (Toowoomba is a crap place to fly into the weather changes very quickly and the wind shear can be a bitch) even though I complete a flight plan and submit it, get a weather report prior to leaving and call the AWIS service prior to take off, I know from experience if the cloud base is 400 feet or above and the active runway is 11 I can get in on a straight in approach from the west - go round is generally out of the question, so why do I persist - 3000 + landings (in all conditions) and the fact that I fly every day it is unlikely that I can't complete a safe landing - confidence. How do I reduce the risk - Oakey is 15 NM away on my inbound track and doesn't experience the same weather issues and I'm willing to divert if the conditions are worse than anticipated (this is part of my pre take off preperation and I have pre determined points at which I will divert) - airmanship/HF. [*]Safety/HF is understanding the risk's associated with what you are doing and implementing strageties to deal with all situations expected and unexpected that arise during those activities - it is up to you. The responsibility of safe flying rests entirely with the PIC the sooner everyone understands this the safer all will be. HF is there to alert you to the possible situations that you may not have considered previously but it will not stop you from killing yourself or others - only you can do that. There will always be people who fly areoplanes, drive cars, operate machinery that should never be allowed to be anynear these pieces of equipment but if they are able to pass the exams & training we are not able to prevent this from happening - our best course of action is to try and educate them (subtly) on the dangers to themselves & others of their actions.

Nah, I think I was lucky enough to be allowed to sit in it.

Thanks to Doug (Toowoomba yesterday) for allowing me the opportunity I never thought I would have. Might have to put one on the shopping list.

Bex I'm not sure what your background is and I don't know how long you have spent in China or outside Australia and for that matter and I'm certain you don't know mine but I have had a little more than 10 minutes experience. I have spent the better part of 25 years working and doing business in Asia (China included) and the rest of the world, the only continent I have not done buisness on is Antarcita. I have never had the attitude that "I'm going to show them how it's done" but I do have the experience (hip pocket) of trusting that others will do it to the specification required. I have found that the save face attitude in most of Asia (China included) is the most dangerous attitude of all, please find me someone in China or elsewhere in Asia that will admit to it being their fault when there is a problem, and this will be a major hurdle where avaition is involved. One particular example was to do with the gavalanizing process on 8000 1" x 8" bolts, when we torqued them up we got to 75% of the required torque and the bolts sheared (wasn't their fault according to them) we sued and won, they didn't follow the specification and this happens all the time. This was part of a M$600 job not a $100,000 light sport aircraft. They can make excellent equipment but as I said before the cost is similar to having it made in Aust or the US, if you want it at that quality you need to have your own engineering & QA people on site the entire time so that they follow to the letter the specification you require. My experience has shown me that if you can't buy it for 25% of the price that you can get it here it's not worth it because of the remedial work that will be required. I'd bet money that Boeing and the others that you have quoted have more engineers & QA personnel on site than you can poke a stick at for the manufacturing process associated with their aircraft & engines. Oh and by the way I don't get paid $3K a day + expenses for contract project management by other companies much larger than mine beacuse I'm an arrogant idiot and most lotto winners would be more than happy to get my companies yearly profit.

All, please accept my appologies the statement wasn't meant to be inflammatory just proceed with caution and I have a bit of experience.

I have had the pleasure/displeasure of having equipment built in China, most of the oil patch went to China in the early 2000's because of the price now most of the majors ask in their RFQ's not to made in China. I also own a Jabirun(230) and I'm quite happy with the aircraft and engine. Take it however you like, but I won't be buying an aircraft or engine from China in the near or far future.

Most of you guys think Jabiru engines are unreliable, wait until you get an engine made in China, you will think Jabiru is the equivilant of a Lycoming. One of the things that I heave learn't about China is that if you want good gear, (and it is available) it will cost you just as much as it costs here, I would be very wary of inexpensive Chinese aircraft engines & parts.

http://bruceair.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/new-stall-and-spin-demonstrations-videos/ Worth having a look at for the effects of uncordinated turns while close to or at the stall

ABC news update http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-25/two-dead-in-plane-crash-near-roma/4591952

Sounds like the RPT was probably on approach to 24 which is towards the terminal and the lighty was departing on 06, may have been nil or light winds favouring 06, easy to happen.