David Isaac

I think it is maturity, acknowledging none of us are infallible and confidence ... all products of age. It was an experience I will never forget, I was 32 years old at the time and was very close to a statistic. 28 years later I hold a different perspective.

Wow, Quite a dissertation there Rob. Whilst I understand some of your sentiment, it simply won't happen. Of course if you think you can do it, why not stand for the Board of RAAus, then of course if anarchy is your preferred method, why not just go fly anyway .....

Steve, with great respect whoever suggested that technique as survivable is seriously misinformed. When a plane is spinning it is descending at at least the stall speed in a rotating vertical descent profile. If the stall speed is say 45 knots the aircraft will impact the ground in a rotating vertical decent. Given the ground is immovable and the deceleration forces would be from 45 knots to zero in the crumple distance of the aircraft, survival would be virtually impossible. In contrast if the aircraft was set up in landing configuration at minimum approach speed and was to impact the ground at say 60 knots in a more controlled manner the chances of survival would increase as the deceleration forces will be dissipated horizontally as the aircraft slows after impact. Either scenario is a really bad position to be in. Sure you may tear the wings off in a spiral dive, but only if you pull back in panic as the ground appears in the windscreen. Again either way you are dead in any case. The moral of the story is don't put yourself in IMC if you are only VFR rated. I did once and will never forget it. You could use a spinning technique to descend through a hole in cloud if you were in desperate circumstances to regain visual reference, but you will need enough airspace to recover and you need to be certain the aircraft is spinnable or should I say, certain it will recover from a spin, something a non aerobatic pilot should never attempt. Again, not a position you want to be in. I had to do descend through a hole once in a C182 to escape IMC, I closed the throttle, slowed up and dumped full flap and descended in a rotating controlled speed spiral through the hole to have less than 500 ft between the cloud and terra firma. A story I chose not too tell for more than 20 years.

I don't think what Andy pointed out makes it necessarily hard ... it is just what must be considered for the development scope. Nothing new in what he is pointing out, it is just not often considered by those not involved in the process.

What ... by a magic wand Keith? As I see it, all of what Andy has paraphrased above are scenarios that must be played out in the IT planning process. It is all part of a quality audit trail in software processing functionality that is essential if we want integrity in our systems. I dont think we have a choice available for anything less than what Andy has indicated.

Thanks DJP, even worse than I was aware of.

I would hope not m'dear. But remember take off safety speed is only 1.2 x Vs1 (takeoff flap configuration stall). That is only a margin of 20% over the takeoff configuration stall speed. How many seconds do you think you have at takeoff climb angle with only a 20% margin over stall before you hit the stall speed if you don't lower the nose?

So what do you think about them Steve?

Not on an engine failure after takeoff you don't Deb. An engine failure at height when at cruise speed you use the speed to maintain or gain height as you wash off speed to the best glide speed. On take off you are climbing at a lower speed than cruise and if you don't lower the nose instinctively you will be at the stall speed in real short time. In the old rag and tube high drag ultralights, when the 2 stroke stops on a climb after takeoff, you are at stall speed almost instantly. They are the ones that catch GA pilots out.

Bit more to it than that Steve, if your nose is high in the spin, you are in deep deep do do and likely to be a statistic.

In this very tragic event, this is one bit of welcome news for Ralph's family. I just very sincerely hope we also get some answers as to why this tragedy occurred.

The problem is that is not what our constitution says and why it needs a rewrite to suit a new structure.

Well we have come a long way with these modern turbines since those days. These new GE GenX engines are really something.

Hmmm ... Perhaps why I would never own an LSA ...

I suppose the whole LSA thing becomes problematic if the manufacturer is no longer around.

You might need to check with the manufacturer, they sound more like options and accessories, than required modifications.

Awwwh ... Ya just all read him the wrong way ... didn't they FT.

I cannot give you an authorative answer on this but it would seem to me the LSA manufacturer would require the certified engine and if any ADs or recommended modifications were notified by the engine manufacturer, them logically they would need to be done to maintain the certification without to specific approval by the LSA manufacture. The only exception that I would possibly see may be if modifications were required to the airframe around engine attachments or exhaust or intake systems that were part of the aircraft structure.

Jeff, We all appreciate the update, thank you. Whilst I did not know either of the pilots personally, we all feel the loss in different ways, for me I feel for those who knew them and loved them. I hope that a lot of effort is put into finding the aircraft if for nothing more than to find Ralph and put some answers to the questions. All our best.

bugga FT, why spoil our fun. I love 747s, they are my favourite by far, the A380 is a bloody big boring aluminium tube with not enough toilets IMHO.

Really ...? Big generalisation there FT.

That's ok Motzy, we still love you anyway, we know where your heart is. Xx

Not blaming you for anything in particular Deb, I just wasn't sure what point you were trying to make. We have all made mistakes posting over zealous comments from time to time, we do get about 20 minutes to edit our posts, or if you are a First Class member, you can edit your posts at any time.

But it doesn't work if you try and renew after expiry. I tried and it doesn't work so I will have to renew manually now.

Well he obviously thought better of his over use of colourful superlatives because he appears to have removed it from this thread, yet you continue to make a point of something he has reconsidered and removed. Oh and by the way, very few of us had any respect for quite a number of board members at the time ... Remember the Special General Meeting that was called as a result? Quite an extraordinary set of circumstances don't you agree?