RAAus cease issuing aircraft registration cards?

[Jim McDowall]

10 hours ago, jackc said:

 Jeez....all this, all I wanted was a rego card for my plane 🙂. 

But you do not need to have one - RAAus says so.

[Jim McDowall]

8 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Well you better tell CASA they made a mistake then because CASA specifically list Sport Aircraft Association of Australia as a Self Administering Organisation.

This is the way the legislation works.

A sport aviation body (defined under CASR 202.900 but not defined in CAR 2.1 as claimed in CASR 21.192) may become an ASAO. These and other bodies may become an ASAO by application under CASR 149.

SAAA some time ago declined to become an ASAO.

However, like every other private incorporated body they are by defintion "self administering". This is yet another example of CASA distorting the language to confuse.

8 hours ago, turboplanner said:

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, but it does indicate you might be exposed to liability you're not aware of.

This is why well meaning people often find themselves in difficult legal situations trying to "give back" to their communities by participating in the management of associations, particularly those with full time employees. They are often unaware of the legal minefields that apply to all organisations, particularly in the areas of employment law. 

[jackc]

47 minutes ago, Jim McDowall said:

But you do not need to have one - RAAus says so.

Less service for our membership costs,  what’s next?  It’s a company now, after all.

 

[johnm]

On 05/11/2020 at 5:08 AM, walrus said:

Be careful what you wish for.........

 

‘Every time you ask for a change in regulations, you are creating an irresistible opportunity for an aspiring bureaucrat to increase his authority, salary and number of subordinates- at YOUR expense.

 

 

so well put

 

on numerous occasions I have emailed bureaucrats - and suggested rather than change legislation - they should take up knitting or at least use a 2 lb hammer on their fingers - these suggestions have fallen on deaf ears

[turboplanner]

28 minutes ago, Jim McDowall said:

SAAA some time ago declined to become an ASAO.

 

This makes two of you saying this.

 

Just to clear this up, here is the list, taken from the CASA site at 08:55 this morning.

 

 

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

9 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

This makes two of you saying this.

 

Just to clear this up, here is the list, taken from the CASA site at 08:55 this morning.

 

 

 

 

Depends what oversight means in reality. Does holding and authorisation constitute oversight? If so, we all are subject to CASA's oversight.

[turboplanner]

11 minutes ago, Jim McDowall said:

Depends what oversight means in reality. Does holding and authorisation constitute oversight? If so, we all are subject to CASA's oversight.

No doubt CASA will have their legal definition tucked away somewhere.

 

When the governments started offloading public liability, on to the actual users, we were very careful with words, making sure we didn't use words which implied ownership, so used language like "advisory" and made sure our members were constitutionally free to make their own decisions and rules. Where common standards were required we made them reference standards.

 

CAMS was one of the organisations which didn't do this, claiming to be a "controlling body" this left them open to liability for the actions of their clubs.

 

 

[Yenn]

What I was asking for was for someone here to come up with the requirements, instead of whingeing about the problems with CASA and RAAus.

How do we get to fly GA and RAAus aircraft with less bull. How should the legislation be worded to allow someone to fly both aircraft types. I know it will not happen because RAAus is a money making organisation and would not allow GA pilots to fly their aircraft without them getting a financial rake off.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Yenn said:

What I was asking for was for someone here to come up with the requirements, instead of whingeing about the problems with CASA and RAAus.

How do we get to fly GA and RAAus aircraft with less bull. How should the legislation be worded to allow someone to fly both aircraft types. I know it will not happen because RAAus is a money making organisation and would not allow GA pilots to fly their aircraft without them getting a financial rake off.

I thought you were asking for yourself. Out of the 12,000 RAA members, very few would be flying GA, and I would think the same small number in GA. The two are designed different ways for different purposes; a bit like a cricket club and footbal club. Both play with a ball and get to use the same sports ground.

[Jim McDowall]

20 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Out of the 12,000 RAA members, very few would be flying GA, and I would think the same small number in GA

Probably not true. At least 25% of my RAAus acquaintances hold GA licences. Facts are required, not supposition.

1 hour ago, Yenn said:

How do we get to fly GA and RAAus aircraft with less bull. How should the legislation be worded to allow someone to fly both aircraft types.

Al that is required is a change to the operations manual. I believe that a GA BFR is already accepted by RAAus as a valid BFR for their purposes.

[aro]

20 hours ago, Yenn said:

How do we get to fly GA and RAAus aircraft with less bull. How should the legislation be worded to allow someone to fly both aircraft types.

You can fill in a form for a RPL, do a flight review in a GA aircraft (which could be something like a Jabiru also registerable as RAA, and which also counts as your RAA flight review) and you're legal to fly a C172 (subject to competency requirements etc.)

 

How much less bull do you want?

[Yenn]

A GA BFR is accepted by RAAus and that is what I use, but unless I have an RAAus pilot certificate and am also a subscriber to RAAus I cannot fly an RAAus reg plane. RAAus also recognise a valid GA medical.

What I want to know is how RAAus will allow a GA pilot to fly their rego planes without having a pilot certificate and also being a subscriber? Notice I don't use the word member as we are not really members at all. I cannot see RAAUs changing their rules to let people fly their aircraft without getting a rake off.

Talking to someone today who is far more knowledgable than me I hear that CASA has told ELAAA, who were hoping to provide competition to RAAus that more or less their was no hope of them succeeding and also that RAAus were not doing much better. That person considers CASA has no idea what it is trying to achieve and even less of ever achieving anything good.

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, Yenn said:

A GA BFR is accepted by RAAus and that is what I use, but unless I have an RAAus pilot certificate and am also a subscriber to RAAus I cannot fly an RAAus reg plane. RAAus also recognise a valid GA medical.

What I want to know is how RAAus will allow a GA pilot to fly their rego planes without having a pilot certificate and also being a subscriber? Notice I don't use the word member as we are not really members at all. I cannot see RAAUs changing their rules to let people fly their aircraft without getting a rake off.

Talking to someone today who is far more knowledgable than me I hear that CASA has told ELAAA, who were hoping to provide competition to RAAus that more or less their was no hope of them succeeding and also that RAAus were not doing much better. That person considers CASA has no idea what it is trying to achieve and even less of ever achieving anything good.

Unless you put some effort in to understand the history of the exemptions, how they were able to be introduced and how you were able to fly simple aircraft as a result, you will never unerstand why there is, and must be a legal divide. I've seen a thousand obfuscations, some deliberate, most accidental, and if you want to know the reasons, you have to do the historical research.

 

Putting it in the simplest terms if you want to fly under self administration, you have to pay the administrator.

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

59 minutes ago, Yenn said:

A GA BFR is accepted by RAAus and that is what I use, but unless I have an RAAus pilot certificate and am also a subscriber to RAAus I cannot fly an RAAus reg plane. RAAus also recognise a valid GA medical.

The only requirement of the CAO's is that the person seeking the benefit of the exemptions is a member of RAAus. When you sign up to RAAus you agree to abide by their rules. Members (or if you wish subscribers) can change the rules by a majority of members voting to change the rules (usually at an AGM).

So for example we could propose a motion that requires a change to the Ops Manual so that following a check flight a member who holds a GA licence has all the privileges of a RPC holder including any applicable endorsements. (ie GA=RPC) There maybe a limitation for example, exclusion of low momemtum aircraft (eg 95.10 aircraft) which caused many of the problems for experienced pilots in the early ultralight days.

The issue of membership is more problematic. But already there are different classes of membership, including free trial memberships. All that is needed is a proposal that meets the CAO requirements of membership and RAAus's membership costs.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Doe anybody know why RAAus ( and GFA too ) do not put the expiry date on their cards?

I recently found out that the GFA card , which has a date on it, records the date at which you paid. Then I checked the RAAus card. It tells me the date at which I first joined ( for historical interest, this was 1999 according to the card ) but not the date at which the card expires.

There must be a reason in favor of the organizations, but I can't figure it out.  It sure buggers me up, my membership to GFA had actually expired and I didn't know.

[Guest Jim McDowall]

Bruce, the answer is that they still want to count you as a member to show how successful the organisation(s) is(are) to CASA etc. 

It is a bit like keeping dead people on the voters roll!

[kgwilson]

RAAus used to issue annual cards with an expiry date and your pilot status with endorsements on but now issue a membership card only. This is the way of the world nowadays like no rego stickers on cars and now no rego cards for RAAus aircraft either. With an instant internet check available almost everywhere it is not had to determine the current status.

 

It has nothing to do with counting you as a member. If you do not pay by the expiry date (3 reminders are emailed & texted to you) you are no longer listed as a current member.

Edited November 13, 2020 by kgwilson

[Downunder]

On 14/11/2020 at 5:56 AM, Bruce Tuncks said:

Doe anybody know why RAAus ( and GFA too ) do not put the expiry date on their cards?

I recently found out that the GFA card , which has a date on it, records the date at which you paid. Then I checked the RAAus card. It tells me the date at which I first joined ( for historical interest, this was 1999 according to the card ) but not the date at which the card expires.

There must be a reason in favor of the organizations, but I can't figure it out.  It sure buggers me up, my membership to GFA had actually expired and I didn't know.

Bang your rego (or anyones) into this and Bruce's-your-uncle...😁

https://www.raa.asn.au/our-organisation/registration-search/

[Sandford Group]

If anyone is interested, I own a business that prints plastic cards

 

we have designed a number of plane registration cards for sale to all plane owners

 

I was always taught when initially doing my flight training and checking over the plane before a flight that I needed to check the planes registration card to make sure the plane was still registered

 

Now that registration cards are not issued, I have decided to design my own for anyone interested in purchasing them

 

always better to spend a little bit of extra money every year than to forget to register your plane then have something go wrong

 

We have multiple designs that can be printed for personal plane owners or flying schools

 

our cards sell for $6.60inc gst (include postage) and we donate $1.00 from every card sold to the Royal Flying Doctors Service QLD

 

Check out our Registration cards at  https://www.identitycard.com.au/aviation-id-cards/

 

We also offer other Aviation related cards and have just started designing Aviation related Stickers

[rodgerc]

On 4/11/2020 at 11:28 AM, kasper said:

Not quite no need for the RAAus it just would require a change to the structure of the operations:

1. register airframe with CASA once in lifetime and get issued VH- registration to display.

2. operate and maintain airframe under RAAus techmanual and opsmanual with:

  a. annual certificate of validity on airframe registration

  b. annual certificate of  validity on pilot certificate

3. 2a. and 2b. only available as services to members of the raaus (because you can only fall under disaplinary processes as a member otherwise its just on/off pull the certificates)

 

Simple structure and easily achieved if there was a political will to do it within CASA.

 

Not gonna happen though as there are only 17,576 aircraft reg combos available at any time in VH-XXX series and I doubt CASA want to move the VH-XXXX to allow up to 450,000 

Possibly time to become accustomed to VH-XXXX with only 56 VH-XXX options remaining to chose from. 
 

The good news is, there are some great choices remaining….

For example;

VH-JUF ie New Zealand speak for a very short piece of elapsed time,

VH-FVR ie A set of flight rules for those afflicted with dyslexia,

VH-ING ie Good rego for a financial institution’s corporate jet,

VH-FNN ie Not fun without you,

VH-VAQ ie Perfect rego for those in the sunshine state flying an aircraft designed by Dick, and

VH-SEQ ie The only rego choice for those living in the best part of Oz. 😛

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by rodgerc

[Keith Page]

On 03/11/2020 at 7:43 PM, turboplanner said:

That just mirrors what's happening in the automotive industry these days. On board cameras pick up in bulk any out of date registrations on vehicles using the road.

It remains to be seen whether RAA have set up an electronic compliance system.

Oi Turbo,

We pay membership for that, this situation simply put we are getting less for what we pay for.

How would you perform if you went to Woolies and they started giving you a kilo short of what you paid for?

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, Keith Page said:

Oi Turbo,

We pay membership for that, this situation simply put we are getting less for what we pay for.

How would you perform if you went to Woolies and they started giving you a kilo short of what you paid for?

RAA members actually voted for the shift from being an Incorporated Association, to handing administration over to a Company, albeit with directors being voted in by the members.

 

In the Incorporated Association there was local Executive representation and you could raise an issue like this, and if necessary vote it out, but with the company you don't have that hads on access, and it seems don't get to know what decisions are being made or even what the agenda is.

 

 

 

 

[jackc]

All I can say is the members of the day must have had rocks in their head to do this.  It now means all sorts of things can be done behind their back.

We all know what that means when some human beings have that power 😞

[kgwilson]

When RAA was run as an Incorporated Association it was a mess. Local representatives pushed their own personal agendas to the detriment of the organisation as a whole. Many had been on the committee for years and achieved basically nothing. Financial management was poor, processes and procedures had not kept up with modern business practice, people were in positions they were not fully qualified for, the list of issues goes on. In the end the Aircraft registration problem raised its head and CASA stepped in to make sure it got resolved. At least now it is more professionally run.

 

Any member can run for a directorship and anyone can make a submission on any issue, anyone can attend the AGM and raise their issue.

 

No organisation is perfect but as far as I am concerned the organisation is in much better shape than it was when it was an Incorporated Association. RA-Aus is now a respected Aviation Organisation that the rest of the industry takes notice of. The submissions on members behalf when Airservices proposed the now shelved reduction of Class E airspace were both highly relevant and powerful, probably the mot hard hitting of all submissions made from any Aviation industry organisation.

[jackc]

Like  many organisations today, transparency seems to be a problem with some agendas or ideas.  Too much secret squirrel stuff,  only release information that puts organisation’s in a good light.  I have little trust generally these days and too often I am proven right.  Fundamentally most human beings do their best to be open and work for the benefit of others, but some don’t.