6 minute markers and the 1 in 60 rule explained

[motzartmerv]

Howdy all.

 

In view of the debate and some insight gained in another thread i have compiled an explanation of the use of 6 minute markers, as well as the 1 in 60 rule. Please click the link below to view the doc.

 

I hope this clears some things up for some, and offer it and the ideas up for constructive criticism.

 

Im not the best author type person so dont hang me on word skills.

 

http://public.iwork.com/document/?a=p1105583337&d=6_minute_markers.pages

 

oh, and the pic on the left is not me, its my daughter.

 

 

[petetheprinta]

And I'm flying the aircraft at the same time????? I think I will plan my flight to follow the roads. :-)

 

 

[rgmwa]

And I'm flying the aircraft at the same time????? I think I will plan my flight to follow the roads. :-)

I'm also IFR rated (I Follow Roads/Railways, etc):)

 

Seriously though, having only just had a chance to read the text after I got home from work, I'm going to try that instead of the 10 min markers I was taught to use. Thanks Motz.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Powerin]

Thanks Motz...that was brilliant. You should write training manuals! I found that method easy to follow, easy arithmetic and so elegant...and as a student I know nothing of navigation yet.

 

The only thing that worries me is that the pic of your daughter is on your other left.....:big_grin:

 

Peter

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Motz, that really is a good explanation. Good graphics and plain English (and that's saying something!).

 

 

[foxy]

well done motz!!!

 

 

[motzartmerv]

thanx guys.;)

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Nicely written and illustrated Motz.

 

I remain unconvinced however. In the scenario you relate, the pilot may have taken some time to realise that s/he was off track. After all, wind speed is often not constant, so arriving a minute late or early at a recognisable feature may not mean you are off track, but simply that your GS was other than what you thought.

 

Given that, the pilot would not know where they started to be off track and thus the off-track line cannot be drawn with certainty, so s/he does not know what angle they are off-heading. Thus it is difficult to correct by the method described.

 

The described solution works in a class room, because the described fix corrects an already known off-track error. In actually flying, however the pilot would not have the benefit of knowing that, but has to deduce it from times, speeds and ground features that arrived before or after they should have done.

 

The answer, IMHO, is to have reference points that are well off to the side of track, as well as along the track, so that you can triangulate your position visually.

 

As I have indicated in the other thread, I won't be drawing lines and times on my map while flying. It just isn't practicable in my aircraft.

 

Never the less, thanks for a really good explanation. It is always good to understand other methods and evaluate if you can improve your own practices. As with so many things in life, there isn't just one way to do things. :)

 

 

[Bernie]

Good one Motz, except it dont work for me I'm dislexic I caint count I have to fly by sight alone.

 

It was a real eye opener for my instructor to find away for me to learn to fly.

 

But I sort of understand what you mean.

 

I was taught the ten mile marker.

 

Also I can not use a wiz wheel, but I do have a small one with only two calcs on it time and distance. Which I can use to varing degrees of getting it right some times.

 

Good thread but mate.

 

Bernie.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea dave i see where your coming from. The of track line was for illustration only, but could easily be drawn by the pilot once he realised where he was, and remember he knew he was on course at 24.

 

The arriving late or early is a normal part of flying, but the key word is 'consistantly' if he was hitting his markers pretty well on time then suddenly arrived late he would have reason to be suss, or think the winds had changed. but the main point is that even if he was late or early, the time between his features should still be qyuite constant over small distances, ie the road and the creek.

 

I have to admit I dont know how you trike pilots handle the in cockpit side of things, many addaptions would need to be made i asume. A lesson i leraned when i ferry'd a bantam 300 miles, and lost a map somewhere near taree. lol, it just departed the aircraft. Luckily i know the area well enought to find maitland, and get another map.

 

Good onya bernie, im glad you were able to find a way to get airbourne inspite of the dislexia.

 

 

[farri]

The answer, IMHO, is to have reference points that are well off to the side of track, as well as along the track, so that you can triangulate your position visually.Spot on.........Reference points (Land Marks) are the best and easiest way to help navigate.

 

I taught the 1 in 60 principal and I also taught in the Drifter and I was well aware that most of what I was teaching,at very best, was going to be extremely difficult to put into practise in the air because of the open cockpit.

 

Frank.

[Ultralights]

brilliant explaination, can i buy/copy that to use myself? as some students just dont listen to me anymore....:ah_oh:

 

 

[farri]

Ultralights,students don`t listen most of the time.....no........seriously.......I found that with the availability of the GPS,most people aren`t prepaired to do the serious study that is needed to learn,"Dead Reckoning" nav, properly,too hard,easier to push buttons.

 

Not to take anything away from Motz,(who`s done a good job), there`s been good Nav manuals around for a long time,I taught both BAK and Nav from the Captain Trevor Thom manuals.

 

Merry Christmas,

 

Frank.

 

 

[Ultralights]

fortunatly our school aircraft dont have a GPS fitted, but i have one student who doesnt listen anymore, she knows who she is!

 

 

[farri]

I didn`t use a GPS either but I do accept that it is a brilliant tool.

 

I`ve been reef fishing most of my life and long before the days of GPS,wouldn`t go out without one these days,however,I can get where I want to go and back again without GPS or if it fails.

 

Anyone flying cross country who is solely dependent on GPS is looking for trouble.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I love my Aera 550 GPS but use it more for confirmation of manual navigation from time to time and reviewing track after the flight. There was always one in the training aircraft and after each flight we would check the integrity of circuit shape / distance, runway alignment of approach, true circles when turning about a point, figure eights etc... ie. it was not used during the lesson, but the track history was good feedback after the flight.

 

I do use it as my compass in preference to the mechanical compass that is also installed in my aircraft.

 

It is good too, to confirm that trajectory is ok when climbing over rising terrain and unlike visual inspection, will tell me the height of the hills beyond the next ridge that are still out of view. LSALT off the Airservices maps is particularly useless in practice but the GPS will tell me the lay of the land ahead and around me.

 

Using today's technology, I sometimes fly the route on Google Earth, noting mentally obvious landmarks and noting actual maximum terrain height on my flight plan for each leg. It's surprising how familiar the landmarks look when you see them during flight. It does help if most of the landmarks are also on the map you are using. One does have to be a bit careful, as Google Earth images can be up to five years old, so it isn't the primary reference.

 

Having heard first hand, several stories of people who had their GPS fail during a flight, I don't ever want to find myself "where Noah was when the lights went out" i_dunno, so put a lot of effort into learning to navigate manually and ensure that I always know where I am on a physical map. Even flying in a group, I do my own plan and while that may be varied in flight a bit by what the group does, I know where I am and if necessary can make independent decisions. I'm never just a tag along.

 

 

[biggles5128]

There is only one thing better than a GPS..........2 GPS's:clap: (Know well your theory of navigation though).

 

 

[P4D]

Thanks for the post and great information. It could save me from myself one day.

 

 

[farri]

I don't ever want to find myself "where Noah was when the lights went out" i_dunno, I'm never just a tag along.

David,Ever thought of teaching navigation?

 

Merry Christmas.

 

Frank.

 

 

[flightygirl]

I think I may know who 'she' is... Reckon Rach might know her too?

i dont know who you're talking about ......

 

 

[deadstick]

i dont know who you're talking about ......

So tell me, how do you feel about that statement Rob? LOL;)

 

 

[facthunter]

Thread.

 

Getting a little bit away from the topic . Thanks for your effort Andy. You went to a lot of effort. I'll make a couple of points.

 

A FIX (without needle) nowadays called a "pinpoint" has to be reliable. IF there is doubt then it's NO GOOD. In aviation navigation and other aspects also never base your judgement on one factor alone There has to be verification or backup.

 

Flying an accurate compass course still has a very important place in your navigation and an accurate application of time intervals goes with it.

 

If you are over featureless terrain (or water) you will not have much else. Your enemy is error in the flight plan preparation. ( Ie incorrect application of wind drift, variation, or error in addition) etc. or a change in the forecast wind.

 

You should verify ACTUAL drift just after setting course, and at all times possible after passing over a fix.( usually by picking a feature on the horizon that co-incides with the TRACK you want to achieve. A dominant feature NEAR your track has a lot of value obviously, and something like a powerline , rail or roadway can be often a fall back scenario, IF you are SURE that it is the one you think it is.. ( not so easy if you are at a fair altitude to see the features.

 

Lakes change shape with rainfall and rivers are often hard to follow and positively identify. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Thanx Nev. I agree completely with your post. If I was to expand the doc i wrote out to encompass all things nav, then an entire chapter would be written on using as many features as possible to confirm position. I guess the sentiment of what im trying to get across is that time is often overlooked when i believe it is the most crucial 'tool' we have. Holding an accurate heading is the most crucial 'skill' we need.IMHO.

 

Rach, ready for that nav test yet??

 

 

[flightygirl]

Rach, ready for that nav test yet??

bring it on! :big_grin:

 

 

[facthunter]

Another Question.

 

Since we are on the topic of Navigation. Can I throw one in? The use of the LSALT. What place does it have in VFR flight?