What are your thoughts ?

[davebutler]

Hi Spin,

 

Do remember the Shack fly past but was caught off guard, not sure if it was the same year as the 737. Also missed Larry Barnett landing the Spitfire on it's nose. Saw the whole thing happen but had run out of film, yes those were the days. I was a regular at EAA Margate from 83 to 88.

 

 

[Spin]

Hi Dave, I remember the Spit, I think it happened on the Friday, I only came down for the day on Sat - got to see her all bent in the hangar:crying:

 

I did manage to grab these photos off the net;

 

 

 

 

 

[davebutler]

I was standing on the flight line and watched it happen. Tuned that Rotol prop into match sticks in seconds and peeled the spinner off like an apple skin. There was an ex Spit pilot standing next to us and he could see it coming and was shouting and carring on. Not a happy moment.

 

A "before" shot.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

How come you always spilled my coffee Nev? Or was it because I was stretched round taking a look at the hostie's legs?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Forget the Yanks,I know for a fact that several Qantas 707s were barrel rolled on delivery flights. Apparently they did it beautifully. I knew a Qantas Captain who did it, unfortunately he passed several years ago now. Nice old bugger.

David

I new the late Adin Wicks who was a 707 captain for Qantas. He flew several of the 707's over. Had a couple of good stories of their flying capabilities. He also told of an experience during early asymmetric training that almost ended in disaster. A few years later i read the same story of the RAAF 707 that went in at Port Phillip Bay. Same scenario but fatal outcome.

 

Adin also flew the last Qantas 707 flight over Canberra a photo taken from the cockpit made it look like they were running red lights down the main road toward Parliament House.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Now that incident with the RAAF was definitely an illegal maneuver and certainly worthy of some thought. The Qantas Check Captain to whom I referred earlier (now deceased) was on the investigation committee of that particular disaster. It was alleged that a certain (I will exclude the adjective here) Check Captain on board that fateful flight ordered the Captain to carry out a double asymmetric failure by shutting down both engines (not idle) and with rudder boost disconnected. This maneuver is prohibited by Boeing and for simulator practice only. The altitude at which the RAAF carried out this practice was ultimately suicidal. Terrible loss of life and a terrible loss of senior air force talent. Certainly not a demonstration of piloting skill as carried out by the pilot, the subject of the original article of this thread.David

That could be the way the RAAF one happened.I heard the Voice recording of the faithful flight. I may get my self in trouble,anyway the way I remember it was the last words on the CVR. They are spoken to the Captain or maybe check Captain, by the flight engineer ,I could be wrong here though, it was a Long time ago anyway it went like this " Good on you, you XXXX you have killed us all". This is the last tranmission one or two seconds before impact. Thats what I remember. Doesnt change the out come. They should NEVER have been carring out Double Assymetric in the Jet IMO.

 

 

[patrick55]

Does anyone have any of the relevant links for info on the RAAF accident, can't seem to dig up any details ?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Does anyone have any of the relevant links for info on the RAAF accident, can't seem to dig up any details ?

You probably, wont mate you just have to take my word on it.PM me I have more detail that is from memory the reason I herd the CVR is because friend I worked with a Techo in the RAAF like me, was the Nephew of the Flight engineer who died because some wanker decided that he new better than Boeing.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi Guys, sometimes it can take along time (years) for the outcome and reason for a aircraft accident. Eg-When Guy Pearce's (The Australian Actor) who,s father was the pilot who died in a RAAF Nomad. The inquiry had taken years and years for a out come. This again is from memory and it was before my time in the RAAF.The Nomad didnt have the best reputation, which played a part in the inquiry taking a long time to be completed.

 

 

[patrick55]

Hey Spin

 

I wonder if all the "Photoshop Wizards" can deny this evidence I managed to dig up, I reckon captain Tarr was also brilliant at special effects hahahaha. Have a look....

 

 

:)

 

 

[Sapphire]

Just a pilot showcasing the ability of the plane although not leaving ANY room for error.

A pilot who leaves no room for error is eventually a dead pilot. A talented pilot hangs around uneventfully for a long time.

 

 

[patrick55]

Agreed 100% ! I think this post turned more into whether or not the image was authentic or not. I don't think it was very wise but either way, it's does make me look on in amazement...

 

 

[facthunter]

Ground effect can be very strong with large wing areas. It should make the exercise easier. the B707 (lovely and safe plane) had a name for dutch rolling in the hands of people who were not familiar with it at low speeds on final. Sweepback and dihedral contribute to this.

 

To give an idea of ground effect the B727 which has a "T" tail, if rotated a bit early will tailscrape easily, and has an exotic energy absorbing fitting to handle it. ( but you are in the $hit if you do it) The other jets like an Airbus A-300 because of the ground effect with the lower located tailplane are nearly impossible to do it with. (with normal W&B and trim set)..

 

Dazza, that 707 airforce accident was fully investigated, (probably by DoT) and should be available somewhere. they WILL fly on two engines on one side but need to have the min speed and rudder input/ trim.. At some weights and altitude it would not hold altitude. I think they got too slow. Bad scene really because it was outside anything Boeing. would have in the training manual... I had a check captain failed two engines on the one side at take-off.. One after the other at the critical speeds BUT WTF? You wouldn't do it now. TAA lost a Viscount at Mangalore when it got below VMC(a) One person survived. I flew with him often. Nice bloke.. He saw it coming and ran down the back.. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

Jeez this is a old thread, I typed my bit over two years ago. The word on the street at the time of the RAAF 707 crash, was not that two engines on the same side were pulled back to flight idle was the cause. It was more of the case of the two engines were pulled at exactly the same time, and the control of the aircraft was lost. There were also some close calls with double asymmetric flight training in Hercs as well IIRC.

 

The thing is- the chances of two engines on the same wing failing at exactly the same time would have to be a over a million to one shot. But peeps have died doing exactly the same thing in training. Doesn't make sense.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The failing of both engines on one side was against Boeings recommended operating proceedures for the B707........................................................Maj...

 

 

[facthunter]

If you are below the speed where full rudder doesn't stop it yawing you will lose control, UNLESS you reduce power on the remaining engines. While you may not climb or maintain height, you will still be in control. Many die without utilising this method, probably because it is not always taught. Nev

 

 

[Sapphire]

My Sapphire had no engines running on one side and none on the other-thank god for the one in the middle.

 

 

[facthunter]

Well under the old rules you can have lots of engines if you keep the whole thing light. Nev

 

 

[flyvulcan]

I was working at Russell Offices at the time of the B707 accident. I had flown with the engineer while at 37 Sqn and with the operating pilot who was in the next cubicle to me when I instructed at Pearce on Macchis.

 

I heard the CVR and read the accident report.

 

IIRC, the initial Vmca demo was briefed and conducted with the rudder boost off. The next and fatal Vmca demo was to be done with rudder boost on where Vmca was expected to be slower. It was fully briefed by the instructor. However, during the setup for the sequence, the rudder boost was inadvertently left off. During the subsequent sequence, IAS was reduced below rudder boost off Vmca and the aircraft departed controlled flight. It essentially flick rolled. The aircraft descended from its starting altitude of 5000' and 37 seconds later hit the water. From memory, the aircraft stabilised in a spin with the pitch attitude oscillating between around 10 degrees nose up and 30 degrees nose down, IAS fluctuating between around 90-130kias, with a high yaw rate.

 

While the double engine failure had been simulated by retarding both throttles on one side to idle, when the aircraft first departed controlled flight, the inboard engine failed (possibly due to separation from the pylon IIRC), so there was no option to bring the power up on that engine to help in the recovery.

 

I do not recall any adverse comments being made on the CVR. The instructor who was not the pilot flying at the time was advising what to do as the aircraft went down. The less experienced captain who was flying the sequence eventually handed control to the more experienced captain, but the aircraft was simply not recoverable with the limited altitude that it had. It was a little distressing hearing a couple of good mates going to their deaths. Within a few months, I was listening to another of my Academy course mates going down in a USAF C130 after the USAF pilots he was instructing mishandled a practise engine failure and spun into a lake from 1000'.

 

 

[facthunter]

That's informative Vulcan. When some hydraulic power systems are switched off in flight some unintended things may happen. When the systems are restored likewise unintended things happen. It's an area fraught with danger. this is where the simulator has become essential to demonstrate systems without dying at the same time. I could talk of serious similar incidents where "fortunately" people didn't die but could have. The number of people who used to crash and die during training was always excessive and costly when done in an actual aircraft . Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

Very true, look at the videos of Bob Hoover, rests a glass of water on the instrument panel and also pours a glass of water while doing a barrel roll without spilling a drop.

I saw Bob Hoover doing his "Energy Management" routine in a Shrike Commander at Skyrace Tasmania around 1995. Absolutely incredible. Not sure if that was the same show that Chris Sperou landed a Pitts Special inverted, but that was pretty exciting too... happened about 40m in front of me.

 

Talking of low flying though, check these guys out... at 4mm below the surface I think they get the prize for lowest flying!

 

 

 

[patrick55]

After all these years I found the video -

 

Ha ha ha - I'm sure some will still argue its "Authenticity" - Enjoy!