Guest Maj Millard Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I also witnessed the Bantam power failure and return. And I would agree it was more likely closer to 500' than 300' as prev reported. I also believe that he had more than likely turned crosswind, so the subsiquent turn to a suitable landing was probabily nothing more than a 90 deg turn, and well within the capabilities of the Bantam aircraft. There was a constant flow of departurers from 23 at the time, and no doubt the Bantam had fraffic behind him, so his decision to land where he did was a very sound one. Not long after, Winsor68 and I also taxied to 23 for takeoff. We had followed out at least three other aircraft who had taken the runway in line, and departed one after the other. As we were about to also line up, and after making the call " Lightwing 3370 lining up 23" an urgent transmission was recieved "xxx on short-final 23 !" getting our immediate attention !!...a Sport-Cruiser then passed in front of us and landed. Neither Windsor or I had heard any previous transmissions from this aircraft, however there was constant chatter at the time from many departing aircraft, and it is possible we missed it. We had taxying aircraft in front to watch, and aircraft behind also. I, as PIC, was busy preparing the aircraft for takeoff, however that's no excuse for not checking up final for traffic. I'm sure however had we actually taken the runway, the Sporty would have safely applied power, gone over the top of us and landed further down the long runway or gone around. The lesson here I suppose is: never assume and keep your eyes open !!...especially for the unexpected.............................................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hard to understand anyone doing a straight in approach on such a busy day.Kaz Hey Windsor I just noticed the "old buggers on their last legs" bit... Enough of the old! I have a flying mate, Herb, who is the same age as me and each time we land somewhere we shake hands and congratulate ourselves on surviving another one! Kaz 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nunans Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 So with the C of G in the sierra, how far behind the seat was the 7.5 kg bag when it was placed on the parcel shelf? An aft C of G is always something i worry about.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nunans Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 some ultralight had cut them off on their straight in final approach. Since when does an aircraft (GA twin or 747 for that matter) on a straight in approach have right of way over an aircraft already in the circuit? They probably expected all the ultralights to vacate the area so a "real" plane could make its arrival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 So with the C of G in the sierra, how far behind the seat was the 7.5 kg bag when it was placed on the parcel shelf? An aft C of G is always something i worry about.. The front of the bag was in line with the seat back. Moving it forward probably 2 feet made all the difference. It's the Cheetah. A fair bit lighter all round than the Sierra, although Garry broke the nose gear on his Sierra at Bundaberg last year because of aft CofG. Later this morning I remembered my tool bag. I had not taken it into account. Putting it in the forward storage would have solved the issue. Guess where it's going to live now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hi Slarti, Did you calculate the moments of the extra passenger and the 7.5 kg? If not I'll see if I can pull together a weight and balance series I was putting together with Decca before he passed away. RA manufacturers fall well short on providing data for what should be a very simple process taking no more than a few minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusty Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Amazing that people can be so stupid. What's the first thing they teach you about taking off? Into the wind... And, of course, before that they've taught you how to do your daily inspection and pre-flights.The RAA (assuming they were both RAA) should have spotters at Natfly for things like that and should write a letter to these people informing them that they need to have a check flight. I agree in principle with you but unfortunately a letter and maybe a check flight will not/cannot test for attitude, and thats where most if not all of the problems come from. WP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
campslive Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Glad to hear it from the horses mouth slarti,this was my observation, not pointing any fingers. I wasn't going to mention names anyway. It certainly was spectacular from where I saw, I can only imagine what it was like for you guys. It takes courage to admit your errors and in an open forum especially and for that I have the deepest respect for. Steve this year was my first natfly ,i was very fortunate to ride up in a mates yak, but was very worried on departure ,we had a jab call base but he was actually on final? and then called final as his wheels touched down??????????????? as we proceded to taxi out after a radio call and permission to do so from marshalls a second jab was spotted on final with no radio calls at all,or the my headset and the pilots must be faulty? during the day gyro copters pulled straight out in front of a rv 4 and he had to go around,the second was a jab and he had to go around,, makes us wonder on what happened to all our basics aviate communicate and navigate,, to alot of people it made us look like a 3 ring circus! or was there 2 marshalls lookin in opposite directions? next yr i think i will drive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 ,we had a jab call base but he was actually on final? and then called final as his wheels touched down???????????????as we proceded to taxi out after a radio call and permission to do so from marshalls a second jab was spotted on final with no radio calls at all,or the my headset and the pilots must be faulty? during the day gyro copters pulled straight out in front of a rv 4 and he had to go around,the second was a jab and he had to go around,, makes us wonder on what happened to all our basics aviate communicate and navigate,, Sounds like you may not have had the second guy spotted, perhaps HE was the jab on final when he said he was, and the first one wasnt calling..:)..Just an idea.. (I thought it was Aviate NAVIGATE communicate..:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Certainly, as evidenced by the traffic flowing from Temora, through Yarrawonga on Sunday, there's quite a few people in need of a refresher. GA as well as RAA. Such things as calling "Rolling" when back-tracking; "Clear of Runway" as they turn off the bitumen centre section of the runway, but are still 40 metres away from crossing the holding point; "Departing" when in fact taxying for the holding point. Calling 10 mile, 5 mile, 3 mile, joining downwind, turning base, turning final, short final; and chatting on CTAF. In the above, you can see two discrete groups:- Those who need a refresher on the meaning and phraseology of standard calls. Those who haven't caught up with the CAAP 166 changes. On a positive note, they all did left hand circuits, unlike two GA aircraft in the last two days. P.S. I don't claim to be perfect. I occasionally leave an element out of a standard call, but at least I recognise when I've made an error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlps73 Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Hi Maj - I was the Sportstar on short final for 23 and I'd given all the required calls, mid-field crosswind join, downwind and base but was aware of being over transmitted at least once so I apologise for not repeating. I did notice you taxiing for 23 but was more concerned with the muppet that departed 05 with no calls that either myself or my passenger heard! From the angle you were at it would be very difficult to see anyone on short finals but I was pretty sure you'd notice us as we landed :) Cheers.....Doug 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Yes we did notice you as you landed, no dramas, and thank you also for vacating the runway as promptly as you did. Fair bit going on at the time and yes a few 'stepped on' transmissions................. Cheers....... Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 and I'd given all the required calls, mid-field crosswind join, downwind and base but was aware of being over transmitted G'day. There is no requirement to make all those calls. The changes were made in car166 some time ago. It's no surprise you being overtransmitted, 3 or 4 acft in a cct all giving 3 or 4 calls is bound to cause conjestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Motz, I know it is no longer a requirement, but Ifeel like a pilot should be able to make any calls as he/she feels is required for safety. In this case it was a very busy runway, with continous departures and similteanous arrivals. The most important call Doug made was the one letting us know in no uncertain terms, that he was on short-final for the runway I was about to line up on. I'm not sure he was the one who would have been blamed for dropping the ball, had an incident occured in this case..I have to give way to aircraft on final, and I also have to ensure it is safe to taxi onto a runway before I do it. I did of course make the call "lightwing 3370 lining up runway 23" which is what further alerted him to my intentions..........Good learning experience for all involved....................................................Cheers Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Good stuff maj. Yep, no argument frOm me. Was just saying there is no 'requirement' to make all those calls. In the situation you described it 'is' a mandatory call as its given to avoid a conflict. A conjested radio is a dangerous thing in itself. How would you have been if the short final call was stepped on by an aircraft giving on of 4 cct calls;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Yes I see your point Motz...it always annoys me when someone steps on someone elses perfectly good transmssion...I noticed it seemed to be more prevelant as we transitted up through Parkes and Dubbo areas, but then more aircraft and airports I suppose. It was very busy at Cowra for instance.........................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchroll Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Some really interesting discussion points here, but it does pay to be 100% certain of the facts before leaping into too much criticism! My personal view (not that it matters much!): Downwind takeoffs (not saying anyone did it) - exponential increase in takeoff run and rejected takeoff stopping distance. Fraught with danger unless within tested aircraft limits, and even then, not desirable. Turnbacks (not saying anyone did it) - the really big problem is with 180 deg turnbacks soon after takeoff. These are the ones which put pilots into a "coffin-corner" and are very, very hard to get away with. I know of a couple of experienced pilots who have done it and survived, and they fully admitted it was a horrible idea and they were just extremely lucky. Anything else (eg a cross wind turnback) pretty much ends up being a personal judgement based on knowledge of your own aircraft performance and whether you can make it across the airport boundary. R/T - yeah I don't like gross amounts of radio chatter either and there is sometimes a fine line between "enough" and "too much". When the over-transmissions start happening, it's "too much". Other than that, I'd rather have a guy say more than he needs to and I think "well you didn't really have to say that", than less than he needs to and I think "well where the heck actually are you?" It's when guys start ummming and aaaahing that I get the irrits. Think........depress button.......speak previous thoughts very briefly.........release button. If you're worried about the image you're presenting with R/T talk, airborne courtesy, etc,, I can assure you it happens with the big guys in the airlines too! It's just a matter of learning from the bad examples and treading that delicate balance..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I'm with you dutchroll on the ummmmmmms and aaaaaahs as I have a low time pilot friend with that problem which was becomming a habit rather than being stuck for words. Practice, practice, practice is the best solution by flying the circuit (imaginary) on the ground, in the bedroom, or anywhere else where there are no distractions but don't just say the words in your head but say them OUT ALOUD. It is much more effective at memorising something when you think of it and also hear it at the same time. We remember polular songs more when we HEAR them. Grab your ERSA, pick out an airfield and do a complete approach and landing on the map with your ' finger' all the way back to the parking bay. Don't forget to look out for other 'fingers' in the circuit. There goes Guernsey again!!! Tries to be serious then back comes the sense of humour. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Perhaps there is something missing in the descriptions. If Maj was "lining up", then he was already on the runway after "entering" and if necessary, "backtracking". So it sounds as if the Jabiru landed over the top of the Lightwing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlps73 Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Andrew - I agree with you 100% regarding needless radio transmissions but from our perspective there were over half a dozen aircraft taxiing and lining up for departure and the only arrival appeared to be us. My sole intent was recognition of where we were and what we were doing and even that failed..... Cheers........Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 In a situation like that I'd be very wary too, probably more than usual calls and nice clear ones at that, with very clear intentions. Good tO hear you were all on the ball and looking after each other. Good job to you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 David, I hadn't taken the runway yet in the Lightwing. There were at least two aircraft in front of me, and an unknown number behind. I had stopped and waited until the one in front had lifted off down the strip, made the call and started to roll intending to line up, when the Sportstar made his short final call which stopped me in my tracks. Remember this a a very long strip so plenty of manouvering room for all fortunatly.................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Hey Windsor,I just noticed the "old buggers on their last legs" bit... Enough of the old!I have a flying mate, Herb, who is the same age as me and each time we land somewhere we shake hands and congratulate ourselves on surviving another one! Kaz Kaz, I can understand that! After getting out of the Drifter from yet another flight, I often say, " Thank you, You wonderfull little aircraft, we`ve done it again" Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Kaz, I can understand that! After getting out of the Drifter from yet another flight, I often say, " Thank you, You wonderfull little aircraft, we`ve done it again" Frank. Try replacing the word 'aircraft' in your last line with the word 'woman'....it works wonders with the wife. Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted April 15, 2012 Share Posted April 15, 2012 Try replacing the word 'aircraft' in your last line with the word 'woman'....it works wonders with the wife.Alan. Naaahhh!.... No need, Allan.....Like the Drifter, she`s always ready to go.... Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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