And down goes another jab.

[motzartmerv]

I tell you what, Im over this. My satellite schools J230 clapped out on crosswind today in Goondiwindi.

 

The instructor took over and got it down on the crosstrip. No problems.

 

An initial inspection showed that the intake manifold had "lost" its retaining bolts. They just simply were missing. Not sheared, fractured or broken. Just absent.

 

Has run for a bout 40 hours since a factory bulk strip.

 

The very flight before this one was a solo student, 15 years old.

 

Ive had enough.

 

 

[turboplanner]

What procedure does RAA have to handle a regular series of failures?

 

 

[Gentreau]

Shouldn't the loose bolts have been spotted on a pre-flight ?

 

I find it surprising that a set of bolts could come loose, to the point of falling out without anyone noticing.

 

Are they not safety wired ?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Do you strip the engine down and check every bolt before flight?

 

 

[Sapphire]

Ive seen a loose nut unscrew downward a distance of inch and a half in a few minutes from just the vibration of the engine. Water will flow uphill before all manifold bolts tightened to touque will unscrew off? How could the engine run if the manifold separated even slightly. Exhaust manifold could come off and fly away in the slipstream and the engine might even run better [4 stroke]. Some funny business going on.

 

 

[Tomo]

That's a new one for the books! Things would have been running a bit lean too, if they were loose for a while.

 

To me, this looks like a classic case of not tightening them up correctly more than anything else. Even more worrying really.

 

 

[damkia]

Absent bolts may not be as evident as loose bolts on a visual inspection by a novice flyer. The bolts may well have been absent for a while with the subsequent events only happening after a period of time of being rattled around. There is immediate vacuum applied across the manifold as soon as the engine fires up which may have been enough to hold it in situ.

 

Is there any daily inspection done by senior flight staff to pick this sort of stuff up?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

The instructor said it was difficult to start. But ran normally otherwise on this flight.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes the normal daily inspection of the engine. Which is remove the top cowling check choke, carby heat, plug leads etc. The position of the manifold would mean removing bits of the engine to check it for security.. This can obviously only be done by an L2. so no, wr do t strip the engine on daily inspections.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Andy

 

Did the engine go away to Bundy with the manifold still attached? (I would have guessed it did) It would have come off during the strip and then on again at the end of the build. I wonder if they just fit for shipment or if they fit for final assembly.......if the former, and your L2 believed the later then........

 

Ive checked all the 3300 online manuals for the engine, fitment and the forms for tracking work at Bundy and cant see the intake manifolds mentioned at all (in the context of fitting and bolt torques, which was suprising in itself).......

 

Andy

 

 

[damkia]

Yes the normal daily inspection of the engine. Which is remove the top cowling check choke, carby heat, plug leads etc. The position of the manifold would mean removing bits of the engine to check it for security.. This can obviously only be done by an L2. so no, wr do t strip the engine on daily inspections.

Would it be possible to include a couple of outward opening inspection ports (~120mm dia) in the lower cowl to facilitate inspection of the manifolds (a 2-3 Dzus lock "patch") ?

 

 

[J170 Owner]

Bloody hell, I do not remove the cowl and check my engine as part of the daily inspection.

 

 

[Compulsion]

J170 I was just wondering the same thing. Do I now have to take the cowl off every morning before flying?

 

 

[damkia]

Bloody hell, I do not remove the cowl and check my engine as part of the daily inspection.

J170 I was just wondering the same thing. Do I now have to take the cowl off every morning before flying?

I would think the standards for private use and aircraft for hire may be different. There would be more stringent airworthiness requirements in aircraft for hire, ie daily checks of things that would normally be monthly/25hr checks.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Andy. No the entire aircraft went back to them post accident. Sent it back with clean bill of health.

 

Removal of the top cowl is not part of an ordinary daily. We are just a bit anal about it but don't do it everytime. At least once a weekend is normal for us. We never remove the bottom cowl. That requires dissambling the intake hose etc which is again, something only a l2 can do.

 

 

[brilin_air]

Checking all the manifold bolts for the exhaust and the intake should be part of the normal proceedure during a service as they can sometimes come loose and should be checked, all part of being obsevant and checking over all bolts and fittings, if it is noticed that a bolt or bolts are loosening between services then it can be rectified and problem will be fixed.

 

Brian

 

 

[ruffasguts]

Andy. No the entire aircraft went back to them post accident. Sent it back with clean bill of health.Removal of the top cowl is not part of an ordinary daily. We are just a bit anal about it but don't do it everytime. At least once a weekend is normal for us. We never remove the bottom cowl. That requires dissambling the intake hose etc which is again, something only a l2 can do.

bulk strip equates to overhaul refer jab maintenance manual 10 &25 hr checks required--- specifically refers to induction and exhaust mountings section 5:3 and 5:4

 

Mick

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

bulk strip equates to overhaul refer jab maintenance manual 10 &25 hr checks required--- specifically refers to induction and exhaust mountings section 5:3 and 5:4Mick

Induction.....doh...I went looking for manifold...makes sense though

 

 

[Doug Evans]

I always run a spanner over most of my engine at least ever 10 hours just a thing I do checking thing come a habit can't hurt !

 

 

[Acky]

I was taught to always remove the cowl and do a thorough under cowl engine inspection as part of a daily. And I know others that learnt to fly at other schools have been taught the same. Personally, I think it's a good idea and plan to keep doing so.

 

 

[J170 Owner]

J170 I was just wondering the same thing. Do I now have to take the cowl off every morning before flying?

I do it about every ten hours, checking wiring, linkages, anything suspect like oil or fuel stains where I would not expect them. I might take up running a spanner over my nuts though. Being the only person who flies my plane I guess I don't have to worry so much about things. I shall be more vigilant in the future.

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

I was taught to always remove the cowl and do a thorough under cowl engine inspection as part of a daily. And I know others that learnt to fly at other schools have been taught the same. Personally, I think it's a good idea and plan to keep doing so.

At the school I learnt at, the Daily required us to remove the top cowl and inspect the engine area. I would give every nut and bolt I could access a good feel up. Found loose nuts now and then, especially the ones that secure the "rocker covers" (for want of a better description). Check all hoses, exhaust, basically give everything a thorough shake, prod and poke. I know it takes time but for the anal-retentive among us it's "what we do"

 

 

[flyerme]

I was taught to always remove the cowl and do a thorough under cowl engine inspection as part of a daily. And I know others that learnt to fly at other schools have been taught the same. Personally, I think it's a good idea and plan to keep doing so.

Im suprised! I thought every one removed there cowling hood before each flight,check plug leads,bolts wiring ,coolant,hoses,etc... I was tought this way and pressumed every one else did the same.

is it different with a 4 stroke?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

bulk strip equates to overhaul refer jab maintenance manual 10 &25 hr checks required--- specifically refers to induction and exhaust mountings section 5:3 and 5:4Mick

Yep. Thats all been done by an L2.

 

 

[Tomo]

I do it about every ten hours, checking wiring, linkages, anything suspect like oil or fuel stains where I would not expect them. I might take up running a spanner over my nuts though.

Just be careful doing this though, sure it doesn't hurt to check, but just be gentle. Some people get a bit 'spanner' happy and do things up way to tight sometimes.

 

How many hours has it been since the last oil change, i.e. inspection? You mentioned it's done about 40hrs since being fixed up, so I'd assume only about 15hrs since it's last service?

 

You shouldn't need to check under the cover everytime you fly, though there isn't anything stopping you of course, but for an aircooled engine (no water pipes to check) they should be reliable enough to last a few hours! I'm not saying don't do it, of course do what you think is best.