Gentreau Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 However a lot of French microlights have them installed as standard, especially the 'hot-ships', in order to meet the empty weight limit. When you install a BRS, you get 22.5kg additional MTOW, but the chute only weighs about 12kg. For some of the carbon wonders with empty weights around 300kg, that extra 10kg of payload makes the difference between being classed microlight or LSA ! . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter G Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 There is also second chantz which use a compressed air tank so no danger of the rocket and worth looking into :) http://www.secondchantz.com/ cheers Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverWing Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 they seem to be popping up more and more, i noticed the other day that the foxbats now have them as standard. look like a neat system! Just for the record - the parachute on the Foxbat is an option. They have never been fitted as standard in Australia. The fitting rate is about 1 in 8 based on the 100 or so Foxbats in Australia. I have heard that for various reasons in Germany, the chute is standard and required by regulations. In the UK I heard that insurance companies do not like them as they think pilots will pull the handle (totalling the aircraft) before (maybe) landing it safely. But I could be wrong on both counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentreau Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Here's a situation where the ballistic chute has definitely saved the pilot's life. http://www.wimp.com/aircraftwing/ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 You are so correct....The BRS could become an avenue of first resort instead of last resort.....That could be a real problem.... I think that pilots that feel and act like that are doomed anyway... It's really the same thought process as "My Artificial horizon must be broken?" It says I am upside down when I feel I am the right way up, so I'll roll the aircraft...You can't trust instinct, you cant trust senses, you have to fall back on training....Remember the OODA loop on you tube... Forget youtube. . . . . use the training you got when you learned to fly. And if, failing this you STILL want to fit one anyway ( just in case. . . ) then do so., and sod those who disagree. ( Sorry Geoff. . . .just playing Devil's advocate. . . . .) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 If every pilot had a glider endorsement there would be no stalls. I find those kind of accidents incredible. Shows no skill or preparation. Oh, . . . you mean most pilots DIDN'T start their flying in gliders ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Oh Dear, no wonder then. . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 That is what I am saying. I cant believe all the pontificating...I will have a BRS soon in my aircraft but it only there for a last resort structural failure or mid air. It is there for NO other reason. Any other issue with fuel or engine or where I am flying I would not be using that chute unless it was the last gasp. You can get the option still at around 150 to 200 ft from the ground so more than likely you should have well enough time to try to salvage a good outcome with out destroying the aircraft by using the chute. But if you have to destroy the aircraft so be it. From what i have read I agree they are used a lot by pilots who really shouldnt be using them for the purpose they have been but it is there prerogative...most have been deployed after they have run out of fuel over tiger country...well that really is cardinal sin number ONE. And that goes to training and I agree with all of these comments...but the colour of this discussion was getting far away from the original question I believeI am also sure it is a rule now in a lot of european countries that there must be BRS fitted to factory builts after july just gone..not sure if it is true I thought I read that somewhere No Mate, the cardinal rule is that if you've told the cheese and kisses that youare NOT going flying that day, don't get into a situation where she finds out that you are telling her porkie pies. . . . . ( PS are you feeling better now ??? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericg Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Hi Phil, You are sure firing on all cylinders tonight ! All the best. Cheers, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 Hi Phil,You are sure firing on all cylinders tonight ! All the best. Cheers, Eric When you have a missus who hates anything aviational with a passion, you sometimes have to be somewhat "Economical with the truth ( not to be confused with Struth Bruce...) " as to where you've been all afternoon. . . . . Anyway, what the hell,. . . it's now raining hard on the metal roof of hangar 18B, and with a bit of luck, itt'l wash all the bloody snow away. Oh, and, by the way, BOTH my current ( owned) aircraft have engines which work on the deu temps principle, ( Two cyl) one with oil injection, and the other with premix. . . . So I've only got FOUR cylinders in total to fire on. . . . . . . . ( at the moment ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Well I reckon most of you are full of it. You are all pontificating about whys and wherefore and should haves and wanted to.....we all know there are things that happen and its called "SH*T" where no matter what or when you did it you are about to die. This is when the BRS comes into play. Its a last gasp effort to stay alive...who cares about what sort of control you have over it once it is deployed. Sometimes you guys look way way past the big picture to the next parallel universe. Its quite simple IF YOU CAN AFFORD THE 5 GRAND TO INSTALL ONE and you are only putting it in as a last gasp or resort then do it. All this other discussion is really crap in my opinion...I think its a easy decision if you have the bucks and a inclination to liveStanding by for the flame throwers Mark Mark, No flame throwers here mate I agree it is not for everyone and you will always have people against opinions but that is how the world revolves. I flew trikes for over 450 hrs comfortable in my machines ability and my ability, skills judgment to keep me alive but then I had something happen to me that changed my whole view on BRS fittment to my machine. One day while I was out on a sortie living the dream I decided to make a turn over my home to wave to the kids and the lovely, I made a thorough scan for my turn and commenced it, on completion of my turn as I rolled out here were 4 ibis directly infront of me about 100 meters away and 30 ft above me and with no time to react they did what all birds do they dived, 3 of them cleared me by quite a few meters but one missed my leading edge by less than 6 inches for which I am quite sure would have collapsed the spar and sent me to my demise. Straight after the miss I was visualising where on the planet I was about to stop breathing as I spiralled my way to the point of impact. This got me thinking about how much my life was worth compared to the $6400 dollars for a chute and it was a no brainer to me, that day I ordered the chute as I realised no matter how much I thought I could handle any situation to a degree while flying I could not control the unexpected or unforseen. I have had plenty of people say to me your mad for getting one of them, my answer is ""thats your opinion" I can bet there are many dead brothers out there who knocked the idea but at the time prior to there own demise would have loved to have had one as they watched the ground rush up to meet them. The chute to me is the absolute last resort when all other avenues have failed, engine failure, pfft force land like your trained, medical reason/structural failure out of your control, pull the red handle and hope the $6400 anchor you being carrying around does what it is designed to do. The thing is, if it saves you it was the best investment you have ever made, if it doesnt work well you been carting around excess weight for awhile and the end result is the same as not having one. My money is on it working. Each to there own mate but I am on this one with you and expect the unexpected at sometime in your flying career. One tip, When you get it fly with the thing armed (pin out) as if the fhit hits the san you won''t have time most likely to fiddle around trying to find it. Cheers Alf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf jessup Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 If every pilot had a glider endorsement there would be no stalls. I find those kind of accidents incredible. Shows no skill or preparation. Hey Sapph, Still plenty of glider pilots kill themselves, so what are they dying from if it is not stalls? Alf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 No Mate, the cardinal rule is that if you've told the cheese and kisses that youare NOT going flying that day, don't get into a situation where she finds out that you are telling her porkie pies. . . . .( PS are you feeling better now ??? ) Hi Phil Yes I am getting better each day. Slowly the energy levels are getting a bit more each day. Still have a bit of pain but not with the chest..still the leg although it is getting better the main soreness is the left shoulder blade and the spine other than that I am good. My comments earlier were how I feel about the BRS issue. if you can afford it and justify it why not have it. It is only a last resort addition for me thats all. My reason for wanting it was a mid air collison with something or someone to hopefully save my bum. I have full confidence in my training and the ability and construction of my aircraft it is the unforeseen that worries me. I will relate something here that happened to me recently while I was still tied to my 25 nm area and is a perfect example of why I would like the BRS. I took off early one morning from Ycab to get my hours up on the Sav and just after takeoff I heard another aircraft (gyro) taking off for a town west of here about 90 nm. I flew around and up to Caloundra and Kilcoy and was away about a total of 3 hrs after some landings and chatting at various airfields. On the way back I called and entered downwind in the correct place infact I called downwind around 1 nm from the end of the runway and I was at exactly 1000 ft I get to mid downwind and I hear this radio call for a gyro joining mid downwind for the same circuit. I didnt see anyone at all while on downwind and I alway look really hard when entering and running in circuit for other aircraft. After I heard this call I started looking everywhere real fast I happened to look through the roof of the Sav and here is this gyro about 150 ft above me I damn near crapped myself I got straight on the radio and called this guy and said have him spotted and I was 150 ft below him he then acknowledges me and says oh its ok I will just drop down in front of you and do a short final........I couldn't believe it so I said no mate I will do a left turn and exit the circuit to clear....It didn't phase this guy at all he obviously never saw me when he was joining mid downwind or he didn't look there were also NO radio calls at all at 10 mile or any miles the only call I heard him make on the local freq was his departure call 3 hrs earlier and his mid downwind call on return. That incident really scared me and it is a perfect situation for a reason for a BRS. He would have decended straight on top of me if I had not heard that one call and finally saw him. NO amount of training will stop a situation like that I don't care who you are. It is like my footer says you cant put brains into monuments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Hi PhilYes I am getting better each day. Slowly the energy levels are getting a bit more each day. Still have a bit of pain but not with the chest..still the leg although it is getting better the main soreness is the left shoulder blade and the spine other than that I am good. My comments earlier were how I feel about the BRS issue. if you can afford it and justify it why not have it. It is only a last resort addition for me thats all. My reason for wanting it was a mid air collison with something or someone to hopefully save my bum. I have full confidence in my training and the ability and construction of my aircraft it is the unforeseen that worries me. I will relate something here that happened to me recently while I was still tied to my 25 nm area and is a perfect example of why I would like the BRS. I took off early one morning from Ycab to get my hours up on the Sav and just after takeoff I heard another aircraft (gyro) taking off for a town west of here about 90 nm. I flew around and up to Caloundra and Kilcoy and was away about a total of 3 hrs after some landings and chatting at various airfields. On the way back I called and entered downwind in the correct place infact I called downwind around 1 nm from the end of the runway and I was at exactly 1000 ft I get to mid downwind and I hear this radio call for a gyro joining mid downwind for the same circuit. I didnt see anyone at all while on downwind and I alway look really hard when entering and running in circuit for other aircraft. After I heard this call I started looking everywhere real fast I happened to look through the roof of the Sav and here is this gyro about 150 ft above me I damn near crapped myself I got straight on the radio and called this guy and said have him spotted and I was 150 ft below him he then acknowledges me and says oh its ok I will just drop down in front of you and do a short final........I couldn't believe it so I said no mate I will do a left turn and exit the circuit to clear....It didn't phase this guy at all he obviously never saw me when he was joining mid downwind or he didn't look there were also NO radio calls at all at 10 mile or any miles the only call I heard him make on the local freq was his departure call 3 hrs earlier and his mid downwind call on return. That incident really scared me and it is a perfect situation for a reason for a BRS. He would have decended straight on top of me if I had not heard that one call and finally saw him. NO amount of training will stop a situation like that I don't care who you are. It is like my footer says you cant put brains into monuments Hi Kyle If you are at 1000 ft and someone collects you, you will have a very short time to get the chute deployed before you are too low for it too be effective. Not saying I disagree with the concept, but I think the scenarios where they are effective are limited and people think they will be more use than they actually are. Regards Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 The chute I am fitting can deploy in 150ft so reaction time etc taken into account also rate of decent etc.....I think I would like the option of at least trying to get the chute deployed from that height....if it was in the aircraft of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Bill, the BRS system is designed to deploy across a wide range of conditions. a 1000' deployment wouldn't be an issue. even at 100' it will slow you somewhat, might not save your life but at least you won't be a pizza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Hey Sapph,Still plenty of glider pilots kill themselves, so what are they dying from if it is not stalls? Alf Old age 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Bill, the BRS system is designed to deploy across a wide range of conditions. a 1000' deployment wouldn't be an issue. even at 100' it will slow you somewhat, might not save your life but at least you won't be a pizza Yeah, not arguing that at all. But.... when the UFO hits you, first reaction: WTF, second reaction: Whats the result of the impact?, third reaction: what action? try to control the broken aircraft? or find the BRS handle that you have never used before, and the first time you do the pressure is on..... How high are you now? Again not arguing that you should give yourself every chance, but in this particular scenario I think your number may be up. Regards Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 BRS handle is simple: turn and pull. Maybe you need to watch that video of the Rans S-9 crashing again. It goes from a fatal accident to survivable one pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreywh Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 too bloody right. If you go to the BRS website it lists the people that survived BRS deployments and the heights that they deployed. I think the lowest mentioned was 100 feet! ANYTHING is better than being a dolop of strawberry jam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloper Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Goodaye all It come down to saftey and insurence. l can see a benifit of these things in many situations but not all. Collision, Yes Structural failure, Yes Engine failure, Maybe (Tiger Country) Control system failure, Maybe Fire, No BUT it comes down to training and each indervidual circumstance. l had looked at putting one of these in the Couger and had decided not to, of what l have seen that they had not been used as a last resort. l am now reviewing that decision, l have always wanted to make the Couger as safe as possible for the family. The thing that could stop me is what structural points l need to attach it too. Floating down nose first doesnt thrill me. l wonder how much training went into the correct use of these systems?? regards Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter G Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I would much rather have on as a option and these work very fast too Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 27, 2013 Author Share Posted January 27, 2013 Hey Sapph,Still plenty of glider pilots kill themselves, so what are they dying from if it is not stalls? Alf Hi Alf,. . . Last few glider fatalities here in the UK have been midairs occurring when a lot of machines are bunched together circling in a thermal, and failed to deploy personal chutes following collision, or couldn't get out in time. . . Two were killed during a parallel winch launch near Stafford, just up the road a bit from where I live, the gliders collided almost at the top of the launch. ( I DON'T know why they launched in parallel. . . ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Not all mid-airs will be survivable as the impact may finish you off. The hazard to people rescuing you after a crash if the chute hasn't deployed is a consideration as well. Carrying the extra weight with a dispensation doesn't make the airframe stronger and must lower the structural margin of safety.. If you go into it considering all factors fine. The choice is yours. Hopefully claims made by the promoters will be not exaggerated and the expectation and application realistic. It will be no help at all in some common critical phases of flight and could be a danger. Hitting trees, fences , power loss just at lift off, in flight fire, just about any landing accident are a few I can think of. without spending a lot of time on it.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 ...I happened to look through the roof of the Sav and here is this gyro about 150 ft above me I damn near crapped myself I got straight on the radio and called this guy and said have him spotted and I was 150 ft below him he then acknowledges me and says oh its ok I will just drop down in front of you and do a short final........I couldn't believe it so I said no mate I will do a left turn and exit the circuit to clear....It didn't phase this guy at all he obviously never saw me when he was joining mid downwind or he didn't look there were also NO radio calls at all at 10 mile or any miles the only call I heard him make on the local freq was his departure call 3 hrs earlier and his mid downwind call on return. That incident really scared me and it is a perfect situation for a reason for a BRS. He would have decended straight on top of me if I had not heard that one call and finally saw him. NO amount of training will stop a situation like that I don't care who you are.It is like my footer says you cant put brains into monuments Question: if you had deployed the BRS, would you have sent a rocket up the gyro pilot's ass/donkey? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sapphire Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 In flight fire would be another reason to just have a personal parachute. Though those rear engine planes make good meat grinders. Rutan claimed if you exited the Varieze you would drop clear of the prop. A live demo would convince me better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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