Mobile Phone in an accident

[Admin]

A mobile phone can be an asset in an accident by it being able to be located by search authorities...but how long would it take for one to be located? I personally would have thought that in less then an hour the authorities would be able to pick up a mobile phone sending out its tower search signal. Does anyone have any ideas how long it would really take and why?

 

(this thread has come from discussions relating to an accident thread)

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

If the PLB hadn't been acitvated, I'm speculating that they may have tracked her mobile phone. If that is the case, a mobile phone is starting to look like it is as good or better as a SAR device than the expensive ELT/PLBs

The life of a mobile phone battery is a function of reception between base station and phone. Where reception is good the phone reduces output Tx power and can therefore extend the useful life. If its down in a valley and has very poor reception then the phone ups the power transmitted, and even then probably has a bunch or retransmit requests that it sends and the baterry life is then significantly reduced.

 

To me, I want a performance envelope that everyone knows. A brand new mobile with brand new battery can have a reasonable life, one thats had 600 charge/discharge cycles might last 3-4 hrs in bad reception areas....Nope not for me.

 

I agree with a previous poster SPOT is a damn good adition to anyones equipment list, but only if theres someone at home aware and looking at the data it sends

 

Personally I'd have all 3, with only 1 life, do everything you can and then more!

 

In fact if you had a SPOT perhaps you should add the tracking URL to your EPIRB online registration data so that not only do your family have it but Ausar then haave it as well and can use it immediately that they are set in action.

 

Andy

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Andy:

 

I agree with all you say, especially about Spot. In the case of Des and the Dragon, I believe the searchers found them by tracking a mobile phone. I'm not certain of it, but I think I read somewhere that they used the logs of the cell towers an triangulated from the last phone connects. If that is the case, it doesn't rely on the phone's battery holding up. I realise that this is not fool proof as ther are a lot of mobile black spots in the country. I wasn't advocating that a mobile replace approved device(s). Personall, I carry a PLB and my aircraft has a transponder. I will also be considering a Spot now too.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

there are quiet few GPS apps for your smart phone which will update your position in real time via the 3G networks.

 

no substitute for a PLB or a Spot but better than nothing if only that it gives someone searching for your a precise location, time and direction. Much more reliable than witness statements.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

I can't believe that people are advocating the use of mobile phones in place of PLB's, no one is looking for or tracking this device unless you have something prearranged. The Dornier and other search and rescue aircraft cannot track your location or transmission, and the telco's can only give SAR organisations data that has been recorded, that is old data, this is the last line of inquiry for SAR organisers, it is not an approved nor recommended method of Search and Rescue. Police etc will use eye witness statements, ATC radar tracking information ( if available and if the aircraft is equipped ) and mobile technology. There is no guarantee the phone is in the aircraft, may have left it in another aircraft, car or left it with someone else and diverting the search away from the area required. Don't delude yourself or your duty to your passenger, family and friends, get a PLB'S and use it as part of your AVIATE, Navigate and COMMUNICATE.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Lets be clear, PLB/ELT are not optional you can only choose an alternate to them if your happy to be non compliant with CASA rules and regs and doing that can have unhappy consequences if found to be non compliant. So, if it wasnt clear from my post SPOT as an additional option not as an alternate option.

 

As FT says, there are also smart phone apps that can replicate Spot Functionality to a degree, its the missing part of the degree that to me makes it unsuitable for me, it may be suitable for you as long as you know of the pro's and cons and have made an informed decision.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

PS Im not involved in SPOT dont sell it and dont own shares in it...I just think its a fantastic addition to your survival kit.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I am just saying a smart phone app is better than nothing.

 

 

[damoski]

I occasionally use a couple of apps for self-tracking and sharing my location when flying - Glympse and MapmyTracks. Although no substitute for proper aviation emergency beacons, it's reassuring to know that a friend or family member can look up my last logged location/track, and perhaps derive history/intent as well. We also have the capability to use "Find my iPhone" by having a share iTunes account.

 

Perhaps OzRunways and AvPlan should add a location-sharing feature. They're always on, powering GPS and exchanging data anyway.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

I am just saying a smart phone app is better than nothing.

No it's not, that is the whole point, that is lie saying its ok to have a bandaid for open heart surgery. You can use it as a feel good thing for your family / wife so they can track you as you go along, but if you have an accident it can't be guaranteed to provide any use at all, a PLB'S is what you need and to suggest anything else is not only irresponsible but dangerous.

Damoski, well said, safe and responsible.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Funny you should mention that I did cut my finger pulling the stainless steel tape off my ivoprop on Saturday. Buggered if I could remember where the band aids where.

 

Any idea why these PLBs aren't activating in SEQ? Relying on visual search seems inefficient.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

PLB's are either water / crash or pilot activated, handheld units are only water or pilot activated, if you are going down, and can activate it, do so, but fly the aircraft first, if you make a successful landing, turn it off and call the number on the back. It sounds like the YCAB mob in the accident have provided everything to aid their pilots, transponders, radios and PLB's, well done.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

My PLBs have got dash mounted switches, its hard to imagine a scenario where you wouldn't hit the button if you had the opportunity.

 

 

[Bandit12]

I must have missed the previous discussion that lead to this thread, but I can highly recommend the SPOT tracker. I know a couple of adventure riders who needed to activate theirs after an accident near Cameron's Corner, and used to use mine when on long rides so that my family can follow. Of course now I don't have the time for the rides, but it will always be added to my kit when going off the beaten track.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

I am tracked every time I fly bye my wife using my iPad or iphone using an app that can track your phone or iPad

 

 

[Yenn]

There is no compulsion to use a PLB or ELT if you fly a single seat aircraft. Obviously if you consider your neck dooesn't warrant the cost of a PLB the authorities are going to take more time to find you. That applies to me as I have never got round to getting a PLB. Now I am getting ready to fly a GA twin seater I will have to have an ELT, although the SAR people say a PLB will comply. Unfortunately thay can't come up with the approval in writing.

 

 

[Doug Evans]

I only have a plb

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Yen, there is a requirement to carry a PLB, single seat or not, if your going more that 50 NM from destination. requirement or not it's a damn good idea anyway.

 

Patrick, I hear what you say on mobile phones...however...the beacon on the Dragon only went off for a short time not allowing a positive fix, but they did locate the wreck from a single mob phone that still had battery two days later. The Dornier is now equipped with sensors that can home on mobile phone signal.

 

The Gazelle PLB wasn't activated, so no signal to track. Activating it prior to touchdown is the trick if you can. They did have a last radar track position due to the transponder being used. So it got down to a smallish search area, with lots looking, directed from the Dornier overhead. It worked in pretty short time...AMSA are like bloodhounds and getting better, with all the help we now have. Hats off to them !...

 

I reckon carry the lot, PLB, TX, Mob on charge, and spot if you wish...that's stacking the cards in your favor !!..........................................................Maj...

 

 

[kaz3g]

I am tracked every time I fly bye my wife using my iPad or iphone using an app that can track your phone or iPad

Funny you should say that.

 

I thought I had left my iPad in the car but looked twice and couldn't find it. I used the Where is my iPad app and it was accurate enough that it differentiated between house and car in the driveway. It WAS in the car!

 

Kaz

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Mob phones....even if your in a no coverage area, the Dornier has capability to track your phone via satilite. Also AMSA has the ability to call your mobile after you have set off a PLB, also via satilite in no coverage areas..I believe this is still developing technology, and may make your in-plane mob more usefull in future, however in agreement with patrick it should never be relied upon to replace the PLB at this time...............................................Maj...

 

 

[DWF]

..... Now I am getting ready to fly a GA twin seater I will have to have an ELT, although the SAR people say a PLB will comply. Unfortunately thay can't come up with the approval in writing.

The approval is in CAR 252A:

 

"252A Emergency locator transmitters

 

(1) The pilot in command of an Australian aircraft that is not an exempted aircraft may begin a flight only if the aircraft:

 

(a) is fitted with an approved ELT:

 

(i) that is in working order; and

 

(ii) whose switch is set to the position marked ‘armed’, if that switch has a position so marked; or

 

(b) carries, in a place readily accessible to the operating crew, an approved portable ELT that is in working order.

 

......

 

(6) To be an approved portable ELT, an eligible ELT must meet the following requirements:

 

(a) it must be portable;

 

(b) it must be of one of the following types:

 

(i) an emergency position indicating radio beacon of a type that meets the requirements of AS/NZS 4280.1:2003;

 

(ii) a personal locator beacon of a typethat meets the requirements of AS/NZS 4280.2:2003;

 

....."

 

And must be registered with AMSA.

 

You can find the CARs here:

 

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2012C00622/Html/Volume_3#_Toc334537047

 

CAR 252A is in Part 14 Division 3

 

 

DWF

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Funny you should say that.I thought I had left my iPad in the car but looked twice and couldn't find it. I used the Where is my iPad app and it was accurate enough that it differentiated between house and car in the driveway. It WAS in the car!

 

Kaz

Yes it works pretty well I think it can pin point your phone or iPad up to a range of about 10 meters or better les has it on when ifly she can see where I am with in my flight so if thing should go pear shape she would have an pretty good idea where I is

........

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Yen, there is a requirement to carry a PLB, single seat or not, if your going more that 50 NM from destination. requirement or not it's a damn good idea anyway.Patrick, I hear what you say on mobile phones...however...the beacon on the Dragon only went off for a short time not allowing a positive fix, but they did locate the wreck from a single mob phone that still had battery two days later. The Dornier is now equipped with sensors that can home on mobile phone signal.

 

The Gazelle PLB wasn't activated, so no signal to track. Activating it prior to touchdown is the trick if you can. They did have a last radar track position due to the transponder being used. So it got down to a smallish search area, with lots looking, directed from the Dornier overhead. It worked in pretty short time...AMSA are like bloodhounds and getting better, with all the help we now have. Hats off to them !...

 

I reckon carry the lot, PLB, TX, Mob on charge, and spot if you wish...that's stacking the cards in your favor !!..........................................................Maj...

Maj, sorry to tell you but the Dornier doesn't have that technology as standard equipment, they can have a portable unit added but it is very unusual and the last time they used one was in Port Morsby, they didn't use it for the Dragon in QLD, they found it by following usual search protocol, mobile phones had nothing to do with it, and rarely ever does. I spoke to the Dornier crew today so that was from the "horses mouth", they have asked for similar technology but it is not readily available at the moment.

 

But what you said towards the end is so spot on, ELT, PLB'S, Transponder, mobile device, mirror, flashlight, battery chargers, spare batteries, everything you can do to aid in your recovery will hopefully shorten the time taken to find you. I think everyone shoud read the EMERG section in ERSA frequently, if its not in there ( mobile phones, SPOT) don't think someone is looking for it ( from a SAR organisation that is ).

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Just so everyone knows, the Dornier carries a Sat phone so if THEY are in an area outside mobile phone coverage and in an area of poor VHF coverage they can call AMSA to make other arrangements. SAT phones and mobile phones cannot communicate with each other unless the mobile is in an area of coverage ! If your phone is not interrogating a mobile tower, it can't be located, they need a minimum of three towers to triangulate your phone's position to anything usable ( less than 1km square).

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Patrick

 

SPOT, requires family involvment, but as I said earlier, if you pay extra for the tracking webpage and include the URL to that in your online registration of your PLB or ELT then AMSA will know about very shortly after they bring up your record...... or the family provide that info to the search team direct.

 

SPOT effectively has a satellite phone built in, but only for predetermined SMS's not for voice (unless its teh bluetooth SPOT that ties back to a bluetooth smart phone (minus phone for the purposes being discussed) where you can load up the SMS with details you want to send at the time......Personally I think its too complicated in the event of a crash and the one with just afew buttons works for me.

 

When you say AMSA won't be considering it (SPOT), that is wrong, in the event you push the help button the USA company sends all the details to AMSA (or the country equivalent for the location of the device) and they kick of a formal SAR, but that requires you to pucsh the Help button where as normal breadcrumbs require knowledge of the tracking webpage.

 

So.... PLB = fantastic after or during an event, SPOT supliments that by providing history up until the event concluded. If a help button or a PLB activation doesnt occur for whatever reason then SPOT is a fantastic starting point that is a damn side more accurate than primary and secondary radar will ever be (at the time that it reports! not between reports, good for calibrating the radar returns)

 

Andy

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Lets imagine I go flying and, on impulse decide to explore some remote valley. Nobody knows where I went. There will always be situations when the pilot cannot activate the PLB, so any supplementary service, even free phone aps, could make a huge difference.