Student Costs for Dual Training RA-Aus

[68volksy]

I feel that everyone is saying that price isn't everything but inferring quite strongly that you get more if you pay more.

 

Can I put out there that price should indeed be immediately removed from any and all calculations. Expensive does not equal better!

 

In my experience if someone loves RA and is instructing for love rather than money it will break their heart to see people turned away because of cost. It's a recreational activity after all.

 

 

[poteroo]

The opportunities to detect some misunderstanding or bad technique don't happen as often as one would think. A pilot may go a long time with something totally wrong in a belief or concept and it doesn't show till the plane is placed in a "situation" and the faulty technique shows up. A " where the hell did you learn to do it that way " moment.Doing a crop dusting course or an instructor rating or a complex conversion may be such an occasion. An accident might be another occasion where it shows but it is a bit late then. Nev

A comprehensive BFR should do it. It's also better to do some of your later BFR's at an FTF where you didn't train - for the very reason that Nev states...

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

If a person does a good low altitude crosswind circuit and can do steep turn figure 8's, you know he/she can fly, but sometimes a belief /concept may be wrong, or just the way a person analyses something, or thinks about it. May be based on a wrong premise. It can still be found in high hours pilot's ( Not a lot but occasionally). Regarding the high price alone being a guide, You may find someone who is just doing it for nothing and be a lot better than the shiniest school. You can also buy a very expensive car and have a lot of faults with it. A new starter has little "clues" to a good school but by recommendation . Not an easy decision, and as I am trying to make the point, one that has consequences. Nev

 

 

[Nev25]

Regarding the high price alone being a guide, You may find someone who is just doing it for nothing and be a lot better than the shiniest school. You can also buy a very expensive car and have a lot of faults with it. A new starter has little "clues" to a good school but by recommendation . Not an easy decision, and as I am trying to make the point, one that has consequences. Nev

I am going to assume one has to be able to fly to a standard and has pasted relevant courses to become an instructor

 

Based on some comments in this thread is the standard to low

 

Having asked that I am an accredited sports coach (here and in the states) and do understand there is more to teaching/Coaching than knowledge of the sport itself?

 

.

 

 

[facthunter]

It is clear that the standard is quite variable. It probably always was. From what I hear (and I have friends working all over the world ) the standard could be better in many places . No one I know thinks it is better than it used to be. Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

It is clear that the standard is quite variable. It probably always was. From what I hear (and I have friends working all over the world ) the standard could be better in many places . No one I know thinks it is better than it used to be. Nev

Agreed - but I don't believe it's due to instructors having inherently less capability. It's more to do with todays flying training having greater emphasis on procedures, at the expense of manipulative skills, plus instructing now being used as an hour building route to RPT. In the 50's and 60's - there were lots of ex WW2 service trained instructors who chose to instruct rather than cope with jet RPT re-training. These became legends in their own time, and set very high benchmarks for flying skills. Alas, they've now taken their well earned retirement.

 

happy days,

 

 

[facthunter]

poteroo, I was trained by persons who were ex ww2 and later flew with another lot of them It's one thing to have a lot of flying experience and another to be able to instruct. Teaching is a skill ( Some may even name it a CALLING). The service method of doing things had it's limits. It had the implicit assumption that a certain percentage wouldn't make it and that didn't fit with flying school or aero club financial considerations. Some of these guys were only flying at your expense by being part time instructors..

 

Also many even after many sorties over Germany only had less than 400 hours total experience. Some of that experience would be full on of course.. There were far more of them around after the war than airlines could utilise. Nev

 

 

[ben87r]

Not so much a RA issue but, I find the student straight to instructor idea a bit concerning. Seems to be the norm from what I've seen tho.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's counter intuitive, to go from training to instructing.. Your instructors should be drawn from the ranks of the most capable and fairly experienced pilots with certain personalities. Patience, Sincerity, Application relaxed and down to earth types and (less competitive than some). never compete with a student. It's not part of the deal. Captain Marvels need not apply. Bases don't need aces. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

It's counter intuitive, to go from training to instructing.. Your instructors should be drawn from the ranks of the most capable and fairly experienced pilots with certain personalities. Patience, Sincerity, Application relaxed and down to earth types and (less competitive than some). never compete with a student. It's not part of the deal. Captain Marvels need not apply. Bases don't need aces. Nev

I see this a lot in the maintenance side as well. A lot of aircraft tradesmen finish their apprenticeship/trade training, then move straight onto a job instructing aircraft maintenance. It doesn't usually make for good training, the only positive is that it gets poor (hopeless) tradies off the floor.

[facthunter]

How can the blind, lead the blind? Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

How can the blind, lead the blind? Nev

Apparently it's alright because they have a Cert IV.

[fly_tornado]

that experience sure has made a difference to the RAA

 

 

[bushpilot]

I'm coming in late here - But what is not immediately apparent in considering the cost of instruction / private hire, is the schools overheads costs. They vary a lot depending on the bigger ticket items like rent - but for us include (rounded):

 

• Rent $300 month
   
   
  
• Power $180 month
   
   
  
• Hangarage $400 month (5 aircraft)
   
   
  
• Internet $60 month
   
   
  
• Phones (landline / mobile) $180 month
   
   
  

 

 

So the trick is to get the right balance in charges setting, to cover the fixed costs but not get so expensive that the volume drops off. We review every 12 months, with the main increases coming from Avgas increases.

 

As for aircraft operating costs, we try to provide a $25 an hour margin as the aircraft contribution to overheads (3 Jabirus and Cessna 152). Our latest aircraft - BRM Bristell (Jab 3300 powered) is for private hire only (no training, other than conversion) and we make $30 an hour margin on it.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

 

 

[motzartmerv]

that experience sure has made a difference to the RAA

Yea, somethings gone wrong hey, there are some clowns around aren't there FT. :) The wankas seem to be like flies Fly's sometimes.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

have you missed my thread about brain damage?

 

 

[facthunter]

Is that where you get "HIGH" on altitude? Nev

 

 

[DGL Fox]

As I have said in here before, why do students need 80 to 100k + aircraft for training, I certainly don't... it seems to me that there are cheaper and just as safe as the more expensive aircraft around right now.

 

So I think it would be good opportunity for the schools to look at these cheaper aircraft when their existing fleet come up for replacement, then by buying these cheaper aircraft they can pass on the savings to their students, sounds good to me !!!

 

David

 

 

[facthunter]

The Gazelle was about 74,000 new and converted to todays money would be much higher. You get better value for your dollar today with more choices. I feel the U/L market would be very competitive at the moment. Competition and cost of production, controls price. My quick assessment would put Jabitu firmly in the equation as a school aircraft on price and repair costs and general durability of airframe. A lot of very nice U/L's won't be in great condition after a year or two on line. They aren't built like a C-152..Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

If you read the Plain & Pilot Mag and read the Sept issue it seams flight training is about to get a whole lot more expensive, as the global recovery kicks in and pilots suddenly become in huge demand. Aust may be a bit sheltered from this given we didnt really suffer a slowdown anywhere near the extent of the rest of the world. Aircraft orders are rising dramatically already and surely this will have a flow on effect, creating a shortage of trainers and thus wage increases from the petty casual wages lots of flight trainers are now on in Aus. In addition Virgin and Qantas both making losses is not indicative of huge growth in Australia, but one must remember many countries love aussie pilots and they pay a premium to attract them into asia and other areas.

 

I watched a few doco's on Dubai airport while travelling last week and every second person interviewed was from Aus, ranging from heads of construction through to catering and engineers Many of the lower positions seemed to be from India and Pakistan, but the higher positions where all either from UK or Aus.

 

My young cousin has been through the freight in the NT, Qantaslink, Qantas, Cathay Pacific and is about to take a position with Emirates on well over twice the money he was on with Qantas.... He said to me there are shortages of "skilled and appropriate" pilots showing up everywhere through out asia and the mid east.

 

He said that Aussies are in particular demand because of the rigorous training requirements we have and that on the international stage Aussies are far better received then some other western countries who also have fairly rigorous training. I think he was referring to the US and UK in relation to their foreign policy, I didnt ask which ones or why.

 

Any how point is its looking like some of our talent pool might well be poached for overseas vacancies and increase the price of training further here. Also by the sounds of it our training is expensive because it is more rigorous then many countries and that has to be a good thing.

 

 

[poteroo]

If you read the Plain & Pilot Mag and read the Sept issue it seams flight training is about to get a whole lot more expensive, as the global recovery kicks in and pilots suddenly become in huge demand. Aust may be a bit sheltered from this given we didnt really suffer a slowdown anywhere near the extent of the rest of the world. Aircraft orders are rising dramatically already and surely this will have a flow on effect, creating a shortage of trainers and thus wage increases from the petty casual wages lots of flight trainers are now on in Aus. In addition Virgin and Qantas both making losses is not indicative of huge growth in Australia, but one must remember many countries love aussie pilots and they pay a premium to attract them into asia and other areas.I watched a few doco's on Dubai airport while travelling last week and every second person interviewed was from Aus, ranging from heads of construction through to catering and engineers Many of the lower positions seemed to be from India and Pakistan, but the higher positions where all either from UK or Aus.

 

My young cousin has been through the freight in the NT, Qantaslink, Qantas, Cathay Pacific and is about to take a position with Emirates on well over twice the money he was on with Qantas.... He said to me there are shortages of "skilled and appropriate" pilots showing up everywhere through out asia and the mid east.

 

He said that Aussies are in particular demand because of the rigorous training requirements we have and that on the international stage Aussies are far better received then some other western countries who also have fairly rigorous training. I think he was referring to the US and UK in relation to their foreign policy, I didnt ask which ones or why.

 

Any how point is its looking like some of our talent pool might well be poached for overseas vacancies and increase the price of training further here. Also by the sounds of it our training is expensive because it is more rigorous then many countries and that has to be a good thing.

You could be right, but in Australia there is currently a huge underused capacity in flight training, so any increased demand for pilots is unlikely to do anything other than make the flying schools a lot busier than they are. Many schools have put off instructors in the last 3-4 years, and the CFI is doing most of the current training by themselves or with some part-timers. It wouldn't be difficult to ramp up training, given that there are instructors around, who are not working in the industry,and would welcome some part-time work. Overall, I can't see any way that flight schools could, or would, push their rates up too far. Most would just welcome extra utilisation of their existing assets!

 

happy days,

 

 

[DrZoos]

I here what you say, but dont forget we are so so so small compared to the international pool required

 

 

[poteroo]

I here what you say, but dont forget we are so so so small compared to the international pool required

True, but the US does most of the training these days, and with our A$ still relatively high, we are only a 2nd or 3rd choice. The US licence, (CPL or ATPL) seems to open more doors internationally than the Aussie. In any case, only a few Aussie schools are able to meet all the requirements - most of the small schools survive on training Aussie pilots. It's a small and probably stable market. Most small schools are likely to opt for CASR Part 141 level training after 4/12/13, as the step up to the Part 142 is a big financial and facility step. happy days,

 

 

[DrZoos]

From Plain and Pilot Mag Oct Edition Pg 42 onwards some snippets of interest

 

Boeings market outlook has been accurately predicting commercial aviation for over fourty years......shows a need for 460,000 pilots by 2031....601,000 engineers etc etc

 

The airlines are ordering massive numbers of jets (more then 35,000) in the net 20 years and they need people to keep them in the air......

 

Major airlines recruit from the regional carriers.....and if they cant keep filling the regional airlines that fill the bigger flights, everyone will have a major problem.. .....at current training rates we will fall short of Boeings predictions by 2000 pilots per month....Even the military which typically is oversupplied with candidates is experiencing a shortage for the first time in memory......revealed this year they are short 200 fighter pilots and will be short by 700 pilots by 2021. The airforce is currently offering an unheard of incentive package with a signing bonus of $25,000 for each of 9 years ...... The military shortage is being fueled by pilots jumping to commercial for better pay and conditions....

 

I spoke with my cousin again last night on facebook and he said right now there are literally hundreds of jobs he can apply for as long as he is prepared to move. He said the vacancies at present are the most he has seen in 9 years and that the older pilots are in disbelief with the opportunities on offer to those with experience. He has been offered a huge incentive not to leave his current position, but he wants to go to Emirates for a change of location. He reckons give it less then two years and the flow on effects as they drag up pilots from smaller airlines to larger airlines is going to catch a lot of people by surprise. I asked him if this will apply to Australia and his answer was hell yes. Aussies are in demand big time.

 

 

[poteroo]

We can only hope it will trickle down to the bottom of the food chain!

 

happy days,