Vev Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Can someone point me to a credible reference (not wiki) to define AUW (All Up Weight)? My understanding of AUW refers to the actual weight of an aircraft at a point in time (takeoff, landing, cruise etc) and will weight anywhere between its empty weight and it max structural weight i.e. MTOW or Max Taxi Weight. I need a credible reference of this definition such as the AIS, ICOA or high profile published reference. Can anyone help? Cheers Vev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Can't see you are far off. AUW is the sum of everything (at a point in time or specified condition) The others relate to (1)performance ( accelerate stop, Climb gradient(s)., obstacle clearance near, distant) and (2) structural. Max taxi, MTOW. MAX landing ( Design criteria,. can be exceeded but conditions apply). There can be others like max zero fuel. ICAO is the ref you need. CASA or FAA would list those definitions. I'd go CASA first . nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Spencer Ferrier http://www.ferrierlaw.com.au/our-lawyers.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 It's one area where you don't need a lawyer. The definitions should be specific. I have to say ( to complicate it slightly) that INDIVIDUAL aircraft manufacturers will sometimes make up terminology for their own aircraft that may "refine" the definition. but you shouldn't have to go there, unless you are flying their aircraft. Not talking U/L's here.. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Can't see you are far off. AUW is the sum of everything (at a point in time or specified condition)The others relate to (1)performance ( accelerate stop, Climb gradient(s)., obstacle clearance near, distant) and (2) structural. Max taxi, MTOW. MAX landing ( Design criteria,. can be exceeded but conditions apply). There can be others like max zero fuel. ICAO is the ref you need. CASA or FAA would list those definitions. I'd go CASA first . nev Hi Nev, I've done my best so far but I've not actually found something from CASA... They recognise the term both as an acronym and as a phrase and reference it back to the AIS .. However I can't find a definition. The FAA don't seem to use the term but use Gross Weight, which doesn't work unless they link the two within a formal definition. I've searched through 90% of ICOA Annexes to no avail ... The best one so far is a reference in an aeronautical technical book of some credibility that Wiki use their quotes from. However I would really prefere to establish the definition in black and white from formal authority. Cheers Vev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 It's one area where you don't need a lawyer. The definitions should be specific.I have to say ( to complicate it slightly) that INDIVIDUAL aircraft manufacturers will sometimes make up terminology for their own aircraft that may "refine" the definition. but you shouldn't have to go there, unless you are flying their aircraft. Not talking U/L's here.. Nev You are absolutely correct .. In my discovery, I have come across US Airlines having in- house terms certified by the FAA .. these terms over the years have become linked as definition reference points for ICOA, which were originally made up slang by pilots and ground crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I would persist with CASA. If they don't have something, they shouldn't be there. Take it to AOPA. I"m a member #46783 . Spencer Ferrier is with them. Do it for me, ( on my account). Anybody seeking an AOC would have to go through this in their CASA approved manuals. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Hi Nev, Many thanks .. You are very generous with your support. Your right ... I can't possibly be he first person that would have ask the definition of AUW, when considering it is such commonly use term. I'll keep digging and chance CASA .. if they use the term they surely must be able to define it. Cheers Vev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignition Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Airservices Australia - AIP Australia 30 MAY 13 - GEN 2.2 - 282. GENERAL AND METEOROLOGICAL ABBREVIATIONS AUW - All Up Weight Airservices Australia - AIP Australia 8 MAR 12 - GEN 2.2 - 19Permissible All-Up-Weight: The weight to which an aircraft is limited by virtue of the physical characteristics of an aerodrome. Source: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/general.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Source: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/general.pdf Thanks Ig ... I have seen both of these but they still don't define AUW for me. It defines the acronym and it also implies it is a variable weight ... However it doesn't quite deliver the definition of what it means in context of the actual aircraft weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Nothing at all within the CASA stuff for Aircraft Weight Control. Some years ago I recall there was an Australian equivalent to BS 185-1:1969, Glossary of aeronautical and astronautical termsGeneral from http://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000000126461 This book may do you http://www.asa2fly.com/Dictionary-of-Aeronautical-Terms-P1763C58.aspx but I don't know if it is in there. My understanding of AUW refers to the actual weight of an aircraft at a point in time (takeoff, landing, cruise etc) and will weight anywhere between its empty weight and it max structural weight i.e. MTOW or Max Taxi Weight. AUW can be greater than MTOW (may not be legal - or it could be legal). Words have specific meanings and AUW is simply an abbreviation for All Up Weight as you stated - no definition required - it is what those words state it is. Weight, all up.Feel free to quote me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted August 31, 2013 Author Share Posted August 31, 2013 Hi Dave, Thanks for this ... Yes you are quite correct, AUW could exceed MTOW. One would think simply relying on the words, as you say, would be enough, however it appears not to be the case in this issue. I'll take a look at the book you suggested .. I did find another one today as well. Not withstanding published indipendent references are great, it's hard to beat something from an authority like CASA, FAA or ICOA, as it moves from opinion to law ... you know what I mean. In any case, rest assured I will indeed quote you given half a chance. Cheers Vev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 What are you trying to achieve? What is your context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted September 1, 2013 Author Share Posted September 1, 2013 What are you trying to achieve? What is your context? The context is a plannig permit and I need to align conditions to aernautical definitions.... What is AUW (All Up Weight)? Expert opinions are good but a formal definition by an authority like CASA, ASA or ICOA is gold. Cheers Vev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 It's ICAO. AUW is what the SUM is. You can imagine the word "actual) AUW. Legality is a separate consideration. If you are dealing with the Council, the less you say the better. They will want some facts but don't tie yourself up if you don't have to. Consider contacting an insurance company that deals in aviation matters for what specifics THEY would require (in their words). nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coljones Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 It seems as though the all up weight is an engineers measure of the aerodromes capacity to handle an aircraft - maybe the max weight before the pavement fails after so many cycles with a safety margin. For planning purposes it may well be that you need to consider the MTOW, either the legal limit or the engineer calculated and tested limit of the aircraft you intend to land or take off. For RAA purposes the legal MTOW would be 600kg or less depending on the lesser of the rules or the certified MTOW. The all up weight is just the plane and everything inside it (including passengers, fuel, baggage, oil, the air in the tyres) BUT the plane may not be capable of flying because of legal or physical limitations UNLESS you reduce the all up weight - chuck out some passengers, drain some fuel, leave some baggage behind but make sure you have 45min of fuel left when you land again and don't scrimp on oil or air in the tyres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Nothing at all within the CASA stuff for Aircraft Weight Control.Some years ago I recall there was an Australian equivalent to BS 185-1:1969, Glossary of aeronautical and astronautical termsGeneral from http://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000000126461 This book may do you http://www.asa2fly.com/Dictionary-of-Aeronautical-Terms-P1763C58.aspx but I don't know if it is in there. AUW can be greater than MTOW (may not be legal - or it could be legal). Words have specific meanings and AUW is simply an abbreviation for All Up Weight as you stated - no definition required - it is what those words state it is. Weight, all up. Feel free to quote me. I agree, All Up Weight or Gross Weight or All Up Mass or Gross Mass is what the unit weighs when you weigh it. It's a weight you could use to compare with, for example Gross Mass Rating, or MTOW, both of which have conditions/specifications which have to be met. So you would get an AUW figure from overheads scales/weighbridge etc., and PROVIDED the specification meat that required for MTOW, then you could see whether you were legal, or overweight. Because the authorities are only interested in whether a machine meets the critical specifications they require they only need to publish the critical acronyms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevron Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 Can someone point me to a credible reference (not wiki) to define AUW (All Up Weight)?My understanding of AUW refers to the actual weight of an aircraft at a point in time (takeoff, landing, cruise etc) and will weight anywhere between its empty weight and it max structural weight i.e. MTOW or Max Taxi Weight. I need a credible reference of this definition such as the AIS, ICOA or high profile published reference. Can anyone help? Cheers Vev Have you got the 610 yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Can someone point me to a credible reference (not wiki) to define AUW (All Up Weight)?My understanding of AUW refers to the actual weight of an aircraft at a point in time (takeoff, landing, cruise etc) and will weight anywhere between its empty weight and it max structural weight i.e. MTOW or Max Taxi Weight. I need a credible reference of this definition such as the AIS, ICOA or high profile published reference. Can anyone help? Cheers Vev I think you will find that the term "all-up weight" is not used in normal aviation practice; it's not given, for example in FAR Part 1 (definitions). The term "take-off weight" is used (self-explanatory) and MTOW (maximum take-off weight) which is a design limitation of the aircraft, and "certificated MTOW" which is the MTOW that the thing ended-up with after completing Type certification (may be less than the design MTOW). The certificated MTOW is the least of: (i) The maximum weight for which the structure was proven; (ii) The maximum weight for which the aircraft met its handling and stability requirements; (iii) The maximum weight for which the aircraft met its performance requirements. The empty weight is the weight with all required flight equipment, plus full engine oil, and undrainable fuel. If you want the weight at a given moment in time during a flight, it's normally referred to as "aircraft weight" in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vev Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 I think you will find that the term "all-up weight" is not used in normal aviation practice;. Thanks for the feedback... however I need to deal with the wording of AUW as this is the term used in the piece I'm working on. Additionally the AIP does makes mention of AUW a couple of times which, to some extent, locks it into aviation terminology, albeit without a definition. Regards Vev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 You might have to invent the definition Vev, since the AUW can vary in an aircraft all through the day depending on who's in it, how much fuel is in it, and what luggage etc is in it, what cowdung and ice it has picked up etc. In general use (not just aviation) there is a term for it and that's Gross Mass (which is not Gross Rating), so if you were taxying in from a flight, and you rolled on to a weighbridge with you sitting in the aircraft, that would be the gross mass. If you hopped out and just weighed the aircraft, that would be the gross mass. In the transport industry, when a truck rolls into say the RTA at Marulen, the system measures each axle's gross mass. That can then be compared to its Gross mass rating for both specification rating and regulatory rating. In Australia, we haven't been officially using the term "weight" since 1972, having switched to the more precise "Mass", although some are still clinging to the old system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty 1 Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Vev In AIP page 171 AIP Australia 8 MAR 12 GEN 2.2 - 19 Permissible All-Up-Weight: The weight to which an aircraft is limited by virtue of the physical characteristics of an aerodrome. Cheers Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Thanks for the feedback... however I need to deal with the wording of AUW as this is the term used in the piece I'm working on. Additionally the AIP does makes mention of AUW a couple of times which, to some extent, locks it into aviation terminology, albeit without a definition.Regards Vev Sometimes used, loosely. You have to evaluate it against the context, in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rankamateur Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 VevIn AIP page 171 AIP Australia 8 MAR 12 GEN 2.2 - 19 Permissible All-Up-Weight: The weight to which an aircraft is limited by virtue of the physical characteristics of an aerodrome. Cheers Scotty Very likely less than MTOW, like an emergency landed 747 at Inverell can take off only with minimum crew and fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 No, it could be more than MTOW - it's what the thing weighs with what's on it when it is weighed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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