Oscar Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 For reasonable security, it's not just the strip itself but the immediate adjacent area in case of EFATO. I can get a strip of suitable length for my aircraft into my farm - but an EFATO at 50-100' AGL puts me into trees. Wedderburn is a considerably longer strip, but has the same problems... and it has bitten people, really hard. I'd love to have my own strip, but I just don't have enough trust in any reciprocating powerplant. And I don't have enough faith in any gods. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Gee Dafydd, I don't doubt the formula you list, but far too involved for me if I want to know DH before take off.What is wrong with the common 30ft/mb and 120ft/ degree variance from ISA? At least that can be done in your head, or even easier put it on your prayer wheel. (or in many cases these days, read it off the EFIS) or have I missed something in your explanation? Yes, no doubt there are simpler rules of thumb. What I've given there is the exact density algorithm, as used in take-off chart calculations. I gave up trying to do those sort of calcs in my head long ago, I have them programmed into my calculator. If you are using an Ipad, no doubt you can download something that will do this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Why would you talk to the council. Give a beaurocrat any reason to stuff you around and he / she will do just that. Tell them nothing and take them nowhere. You can work out what length you need by doing some tests. A C180 will get in where a C172 or jab would stand no chance. They can get off in less distance than a Thruster, I know because I lost a bet on that. SPOT ON... only CASA have aurthority on rwy's.. COUNCIL<POLICE>NEIGHBOURS, ETC ETC...,CANT DO SQUAT AND HAVE NO SAY... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I'd say 450 M at 3200 ft is way too short for any Jabiru - you could get in, but you'd be trucking it out. C 180 is OK on my 400 M strip at 2000 ft, but not with much to spare. You're into carbon cub territory I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teckair Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 SPOT ON... only CASA have aurthority on rwy's.. COUNCIL<POLICE>NEIGHBOURS, ETC ETC...,CANT DO SQUAT AND HAVE NO SAY... I am not so sure about that, councils have a history of causing problems just ask the people from Evans Head. I know of cases where councils have shut down private airfields based on complaints from the neigbours. There are many airfields under threat from councils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Councils certainly can get involved and will get involved if the Planning Scheme conditions are infringed. Usually when nothing has happened it is because no one has complained. I'm aware of a case where an Applicant wanted to set up a truck store, which was illegal. In the VCAT case he said he wasn't doing anything different to the other 9 truck storage yards nearby. The Council has now closed down most of them and will likely be continuing action for another few years. It all hinges on what the Planning Scheme says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Regarding take-off and landing performance rules of thumb, here's a table from Flight Safety Australia (May-June 2001) and a FAA Wings Seminar handout by Amy L. Hoover: density-altitude-and-aircraft-performance-handout.pdf density-altitude-and-aircraft-performance-handout.pdf density-altitude-and-aircraft-performance-handout.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I'm trying that Flight Safety table again as a pdf. hoping it won't be compressed beyond readability: PERF. CALCS..pdf PERF. CALCS..pdf PERF. CALCS..pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camel Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Local council rule on my rural land is you can build two sheds without approval as long as they are more than 20 meters from the boundary and less than 140 sq meters. As far as short field I Have a 420 strip and 720 strip, I have not landed there yet as still finishing off, can land at grass at airport with 60 litres, one up and slight headwind at sea level in a J230 able to take off and land in approx 140 meters, as Maj said Jabiru are not short fielders as you have to nail the speed and approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted December 30, 2013 Author Share Posted December 30, 2013 I'd say 450 M at 3200 ft is way too short for any Jabiru - you could get in, but you'd be trucking it out. C 180 is OK on my 400 M strip at 2000 ft, but not with much to spare. You're into carbon cub territory I suspect. Yep I now agree, looking at 600m strip plus 280 m each end free of anything other than fence at 100 m Plenty of Efato options Rest of my travel is long way, love a Savvy or Cub but only for the take off bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 quote David =You do NOT need Council approval to land and takeoff aircraft from your own property or to allow visitors to use for visiting in same way motor vehicles can arrive and leave your property without Council approval. Your neighbours cannot legally stop you, but they can object and cause trouble, so best to agree with them that you will fly neigbourly. To clarify, I am specifically referring to rural land, I wouldn't try it in a 5 acre allotment among a whole lot of others. I suggest to search the other threads, there was a lot of legal advice on those and some from some very experienced people. I would NOT go near Council until you have done your research and even then if I had rural land I also wouldn't go anywhere near Council ... you don't need to. It is just a paddock that meets the minimal dimensions as spelled out in the ALA guidelines that is all. If it meets the right dimensions for YOUR aircraft, you can legally land and take off from it. To suggest you need approval from Council for this purpose is like suggesting you need approval from Council to drive your D7 across any of your paddocks. Aircraft can be a normal part of rural activity as is having a 4WD. DONT call it an airfield, it is just a landing strip (ALA) and don't do any commercial aviation activity from it unless you are an AG pilot and happen to own the land and it is part of a larger rural holding. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 FMe, you can't be inventive, you need to check the Planning Scheme for your location. Rural Zoning in recent years has picked up new conditions. You don't have to go to the Council, you can get the information online - so simple to do that it's crazy not to. As I said previously, you will usually only get entwined in a planning battle when a neighbour complains, and your alternative description will not carry any weight at all. Better to be safe than sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles5128 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 The advice I would give is exactly what I have done, speak to any neighbours, lodge a development application with the council for an airstrip and a hangar, be up front, council will and must work within environmental planning guidelines. If you are not seeking to breach any of these guidelines, council should approve your application despite any neighbour objection. It is much more peace of mind to have your strip approved and not worry about fighting down the track once you have done all the hard work building it. My strip has an elevation of 3500ft, 600m long, I comfortably get off in less than 300m, landing in 350-400m. If you have a short strip, Dont be at MTOW and pick your day when you go flying, suitable winds etc. There will be some compromises to having your own strip but it is worth it. I will say it again.... Do not use carpet on the floor of any hangar, static electricity charge build up is lethal where fuel may be stored and fuel caps will be removed, seen the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic36 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 I will say it again.... Do not use carpet on the floor of any hangar, static electricity charge build up is lethal where fuel may be stored and fuel caps will be removed, seen the results. While I see what you are saying Bigggles, I see the problem being refuelling in the hangar, not the carpet on the floor. Surely it is better to get out of the hangar and put some distance between the assets therein and any potential fire also any spillage is better off outside than in. Everybody has their unique circumstances, and in my situation the fuel is not stored in the hangar either. On the other hand the carpet is nice on the knees when down there worshipping those itty bitty tyres. Regards Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Interesteringly enough on a recent CASA regs course it was noted that refuelling or defueling with Avgas is NOT permitted within any hangar, whereas refuelling or defueling with Avtur ( aviation Kerosene / jetfuel) is. Totally different volatility characteristics. Mogas would be in the Avgas category, with flammable vapours easily escaping.............Maj..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Without wanting to state the obvious of course, any farm strip is only long enough if it suits the aircraft/ pilot/ weather/ strip conditions on the day. For instance Heathrows strip with a meter of young cane at the approach end is great right now, but becomes a different ballgame in a few months with 3 meters of cane. Nil winds can be a problem if loaded, where with 5-10 kts on the nose, it's a better game. One needs to look at the potential for every take off, and go with the longer strip, or leave it in the shed, if there's any doubt, always erring on the side of safety. I have know pilots to use marginal strips many many times with success, only to get caught out with a very hot day or with funny winds on that last unsuccessfull takeoff, which can well prove fatal. High temps (density altitude) for instance is a triple -edged sword. You get less power from your engine, lest thrust from you prop, and less lift from your wing due to the thinner air. Result are a much longer takeoff run, with associated anaemic climb out, when you do finally aviate .................Maj.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Good advice from Maj. The things that catch you are grass and effect of soft ground ,It is hard to evaluate these. As pointed out the effect of DA can be calculated so if you don't bother doing that and just take a stab you may get a shock that you deserve really.. The other thing is it will probably perform like a dog once airborne, at a high DA, so take that into consideration too. When conditions are marginal , pick a point on the runway where YOU should have reached lift off speed , and if when the take-off run is done you don't reach a good speed by the designated point. give the take-off away. Get the pax to go by car to some point more safe, and pick him/her up from there.. Nev 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerme Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 FMe, you can't be inventive, you need to check the Planning Scheme for your location. Rural Zoning in recent years has picked up new conditions. You don't have to go to the Council, you can get the information online - so simple to do that it's crazy not to. As I said previously, you will usually only get entwined in a planning battle when a neighbour complains, and your alternative description will not carry any weight at all. Better to be safe than sorry. may be out dated? back in 2005..Councils, in Victoria at least, have no say in it according to a VCAT ruling a few years back down Colac way. I'll track down the ruling link. It's interesting reading. A mate just had a win for his own home strip 2008, with his council admitting that they have *no* say in it. Planning permission is not required for a private airstrip. Helipad yes, private strip, no. Stand by for a link to the ruling..... http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/vic/VCAT/2005/2267.html?query=^upson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 What I suggested is that you check the Planning Scheme for your location. You were suggesting a different description would get you off the hook. I'm suggesting the decision will be made based on what's in YOUR Planning Scheme. Re your example: I have appeared before Member Gibson several times, and she is very thorough. In this case the local planning scheme did not require a permit, and the Planning Officers followed the scheme and made no objection to the farmer's proposal. However, the wind farm operator thought he might lose money so he used an argument that because of potential financial effect on him the Council should have required the land owner to apply for a Planning Permit, and the wind farm operator would then have been able to object. Clause 11 You will see that there ARE some conditions requiring a permit - commercial operations, and helicopter operations, so even though this is way out in the country, you still have to comply with conditions. He wasn't operating commercially so this condition had no effect. Clause 12 It would have required a Planning Permit if the Use had been separate to the farm operation, for example if someone just rented the strip from the land owner. Clause 13 Member Gibson found that the Use WAS ancillary to the farming, and cited some prior cases with a similar finding. So this formally knocked out Clause 12 and it was all over in favour of the farmer. IMPORTANT: Note that the emotional financial argument of the Windfarm operator carried no weight at all; the decision was made on Planning Scheme alone, which is what I have been stressing for some time. In most cases the critical Planning item will be the hangar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 My strip has an elevation of 3500ft, 600m long, I comfortably get off in less than 300m, landing in 350-400m. If you have a short strip, Dont be at MTOW and pick your day when you go flying, suitable winds etc. There will be some compromises to having your own strip but it is worth it.. Just checking this is in a J230? Gives me confidence if it is. I've got 400+ landings up in this aircraft and yes I have scared myself and still do occasionally by over shooting and runways not being long enough in unexpected conditions, "have another go" is said regularly when things don't play out as planned on approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Make sure your engine is not idling at too high an RPM. You will float forever in a 230 if it does. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCM Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I have 700 meters at 600 feet above sea level and regularly get off the ground in 300 meters but will admit that I have gone around quite a few times due to not being happy with my approach but I don't have anywhere near 400 landings ,have had a 172/150 in and out with no problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Both of those aircraft don't need a lot of runway flown well but the 230 is not that bad. I reckon the original jab needs as much runway (almost). It is not like a Comper Swift or such. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted December 31, 2013 Author Share Posted December 31, 2013 Looking at C180 charts on the web sees it needing similar lengths as j200 Landing J200 is more positive than J230 however sure will float if wind or speed are against you. How do people control grass on home strips? Brave sheep? Or swallow the cost and go gravel? Mowing seems tedious and need special slasher to get good job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Get an old tractor and have a slasher in good working order. I would use grass if you can in preference to gravel. Depends on rainfall. You only need to mow the strip and do something about the rest less often ( animals) You might have to topdress occasionally especially if the usage level gets such that you wear through the grass in spots. Move the strip around like a cricket pitch to even the wear. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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