Yuri Gagarin Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 You could be right FT, but I don't know enough about Drifters to comment It might not be a good idea bagging drifters if want your true identity to remain private. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I just had a look on Jabiru's website, no mention there of cutting $20K from the J230's selling price [in Australia] that is mentioned in the video, then too ease my frustration and confusion I read the terms and conditions for use of Jabiru's website (how many websites have that?) and realised by mentioning I viewed the website I think I may have breached the terms and conditions. Also no mention of South African airframes or Chinese engines. This is a golden era for Jabiru, they should spend more time promoting themselves, you find out more about Jabiru from the US than you do from Australia. Oscar, how do you think Ian going to go selling those Camit engines at a higher price than genuine [albeit Chinese derived] Jabiru engines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 It might not be a good idea bagging drifters if want your true identity to remain private. Wouldn't dream of bagging them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Thanks Andy, I appreciate your comments and agree with what you say. I certainly don't under-estimate FT's intellect and, as I get up to his part of the world reasonable frequently, I might seek him out so that we can shout at one another in private.Completely off topic, can I offer you my congratulations on being elected to the Board. Well done. Be warned though... We, out here in the wilderness, will expect great things. Thanks for the kind words. It's my belief that "good things" are already happening and given the current board (of which I'm not yet part until the upcoming AGM) is very conservative about blowing their own trumpet it may still be a few weeks or more before you hear about the good things delivered and the others close to being delivered, perhaps in fact they may well (guess on my part, because I'm not yet part of their communications) be discussed at the upcoming AGM. I believe that we are at a cross roads, change is always a constant and those who try and buck it are generally likely to end up on the endangered species list.... We need to look at the changes on offer and react in a way that brings the best value for members both now but more importantly into the future. But all that said most importantly we, the future board, must represent members and if you don't tell members what is happening, and don't ask what members want then I wonder how that even becomes possible to represent anyone other than yourself? So if you have ideas about the way we should be going I'd be happy to hear them and those for and against in new threads on here, or by email asaywell .at. esc.net.au if you would prefer to keep it out of public to start with. It has constantly been the claim by Ian that most recreational flyers visit this site, equally I have heard that a statistically irrelevant number of members visit here, I don't know the truth, but I do tend to believe Ian is closer to the mark. I cant imagine how one can be a recreational flyer and not be online. And not only online but reasonably up to speed with online concepts. How can you be aware of your legislative requirements, your weather, your area briefings etc. without being online? Perhaps that might be an interesting statistic to know, how many RAAus members have NAIPS login credentials, If you as a member do have those then you must be online and capable of driving something as intuitive as a forum like these. As an aside anyone still having delayed registration issues, where the delay is not one where RAAus are waiting on you.......Anyone? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Andy, I'm staggered to hear that, as a Board member elect, you are not yet included Board communications. It would seem to be both foolish of the Board and unfair to those newly elected not to bring the newbies up to speed before you are gowned and wigged. I can understand that you could not cast a vote on matters yet but in my view you should be allowed to contribute to discussions and, I would argue, MUST be included in board discussions. If there is a barrier to this in our constitution then I strongly urge you work to have it removed. Regards Note to Mods/Admin: New thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Wouldn't dream of bagging them. No, indeed - no need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Andy, I'm staggered to hear that, as a Board member elect, you are not yet included Board communications. It would seem to be both foolish of the Board and unfair to those newly elected not to bring the newbies up to speed before you are gowned and wigged. I can understand that you could not cast a vote on matters yet but in my view you should be allowed to contribute to discussions and, I would argue, MUST be included in board discussions. If there is a barrier to this in our constitution then I strongly urge you work to have it removed.Regards Note to Mods/Admin: New thread? I have access to some communications but not yet all. I would be very surprised if something significant happens and I wasn't brought up to speed. So don't take my response as absolutely nothing that is not the case. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Oscar, how do you think Ian going to go selling those Camit engines at a higher price than genuine [albeit Chinese derived] Jabiru engines? I've yet to see a Chinese derived Jabiru engine; please enlighten me - have any of these yet reached the market place? They cannot replace the Jab 2200 C, in Jabirus up to & including the 160C, unless they achieve Type Certification. Also, how do you know that they will be cheaper than a CAMit engine? The cost of an engine is not known until it gets to the point of its first major overhaul. From what I've seen to-date, I'd expect a longer overhaul life from a CAMit engine than from a "genuine Jabiru" engine, no matter whence it is derived - but time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Is it mentioned in the video when they are set to hit the market? I thought they where already using some Chinese parts, I vaguely remember something about a new intake manifold a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Are they still selling Cs? I thought it was all Ds now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Is it mentioned in the video when they are set to hit the market? I thought they where already using some Chinese parts, I vaguely remember something about a new intake manifold a while back. They are having various raw components made in China but the finishing is all done in Oz I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 The LNP gov in QLD jacked up the price of electricity 30% in the last 2 years. That's got to be hurting Jabiru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 The LNP gov in QLD jacked up the price of electricity 30% in the last 2 years. That's got to be hurting Jabiru Jab and electricity hikes have been around regardless of either Lab or Lib being there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 They are getting ready to privatise the power network and generators, last I heard they are looking at the legalities of a $499 per day surcharge to discourage solar http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s4071186.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 I just had a look on Jabiru's website, no mention there of cutting $20K from the J230's selling price [in Australia] that is mentioned in the video, then too ease my frustration and confusion I read the terms and conditions for use of Jabiru's website (how many websites have that?) and realised by mentioning I viewed the website I think I may have breached the terms and conditions.Also no mention of South African airframes or Chinese engines. This is a golden era for Jabiru, they should spend more time promoting themselves, you find out more about Jabiru from the US than you do from Australia. Oscar, how do you think Ian going to go selling those Camit engines at a higher price than genuine [albeit Chinese derived] Jabiru engines? Watch ot again and sort out the facts or at least keep quiet Its a US video, the accents give it away....... Cost reduction is versus $150 K of airframe produced in USA No mentions of anythign from china but exporting airframe TO china Why do people who dislike somethign feel the need to argue in topics they are not interested in Its dissapointing to see what could be a positive thread become a slanging match and interested contributors go quiet and dissapear 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Oscar, how do you think Ian going to go selling those Camit engines at a higher price than genuine [albeit Chinese derived] Jabiru engines? Well, FT, this is in fact a serious question that I am sure many more than you would like answered. I'm going to treat it as serious, rather than an attempt to gain a response that you can use to select a few words, quote out of context, and use as 'proof' of a ludicrous hypothesis - because if you choose to so do, your motives and your modus operandi will be entirely clear to all forum members, so that would be a 'win-win' for the progress of intelligent debate on the subject of Jabiru/CAMit engines. Let's go back to history, for a moment - and that's cogent, since it is axiomatic that aircraft are designed around available engines. I have quoted this many times, but for those unfamiliar with the early history of Jabiru (and that needs to be taken in the context of the regulations in force at the time for 'ultralights'), see: http://www.aeromech.usyd.edu.au/AERO1400/Jabiru_Construction/jabiru.html The 1600 engine Jabiru produced was marginal in terms of performance for the aircraft; a few more than 50 of the 1600-engined models were produced -and my own one was a factory 'hack' for the development of the 2200, and believe me, it shows! The work required to bring it up to a decent standard with a 2200-engine is not inconsiderable; the fact that it managed to achieve 2700 hours mostly as a training aircraft is mute testament to the fact that it had reserves of strength and general robustness and a huge tolerance of poor maintenance work, (mostly done - I am somewhat concerned to say - by LAMES/L2s). Despite all of that, it is, as far as I am aware, the FIRST VH-reg aircraft ever produced in Australia with an Australian-manufactured engine. The 2200J engine was the first Australian-manufactured aircraft engine to gain certification to international standards - JAR 22H, the same standard as the Rotax 912A. Please correct me if I am mistaken here, but the Jab 2200 remains as the ONLY aero-engine manufactured here that has internationally-recognised certification acceptance. Now let's fast-forward to today. Firstly, let's just dispense with the 'Chinese-derived' furphy. ALL Jabiru engines are essentially manufactured by CAMit - but they do include Chinese-derived components. The apocryphal 'Chinese' Jab. engine has not been introduced; those with close association to Jabiru have good reason to believe that the mooted 'Chinese' engine has not been able to meet performance standards. The details of why that may be are not germane to this discussion. You will find Chinese-manufactured parts, if not the whole, in a vast range of 'Australian' products. Is this surprising? Was the Cessna Skycatcher a product of the 'good 'ol USA'? The CAMit engine will of necessity be more expensive than a current Jabiru engine: it has more manufacturing processes, it has better components and it has a QC regime that, if you care to witness it which you can do with a five-hour drive from your home, is verifiably world's best practice. If I were Ian Bent, I would include the requirement for an audit of installation - as required by Lycoming - for the issue of a full guarantee. Will people pay for a more expensive, verifiably and demonstrably better, Jabiru-derived engine? The question is valid, but the contra-question is: will people pay more upfront for something that has the credentials to deliver lower service-life costs? That's not a silly question, because the costs of any alternative to a Jab. factory engine go way beyond just initial purchase cost: they include - $$/hour amortised costs, fuel economy, utility of their aircraft within MTOW restriction and far more cogently - utility for realistic use. A Jab with a Jab/CAMit engine is a damn good match to realistic use in this country, in terms of performance/range/x-country achievable speed in Australian conditions/purchase and running costs. If your ambition is limited to flying two deckchairs around a 50K triangle in good weather, freezing your nuts off, then you do not have the perspective to consider the CAMit engine alternative. If you want to have something that has Gucci-graphics and c/f credentials to cause the folk in the next aero-club to your home field to have premature orgasms - go for it. If you want to have something in the hanger that you and you partner can decide on a Thursday evening to go to the Barossa for a weekend away and collect a couple of selected cases of great reds, or go to Bundy for ten kilos of prawns, or use as your 'ute' for outback maintenance duties - then you will be seriously interested in a Jab with a CAMit engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Also no mention of South African airframes or Chinese engines. ... than genuine [albeit Chinese derived] Jabiru engines? FT, I mentioned that some raw forgings are Chinese derived, but machined to the fine tolerances in Oz - the rub here is those Chinese forgings are most likely Australian sourced steel or minerals anyway. I don't know why you insist on playing the Chinese card with this one and note that Jab bottom ends seem to be as good as it gets by any World standards, Chinese forgings or not and the airframe is without doubt as good as it's peers, ZA or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 FT, I mentioned that some raw forgings are Chinese derived, but machined to the fine tolerances in Oz - the rub here is those Chinese forgings are most likely Australian sourced steel or minerals anyway.I don't know why you insist on playing the Chinese card with this one and note that Jab bottom ends seem to be as good as it gets by any World standards, Chinese forgings or not and the airframe is without doubt as good as it's peers, ZA or not. What forgings? Last time I looked, jab engines had billet-machined crankshafts, connecting rods, crankcases, cylinder barrels and cylinder heads. The pistons were no doubt forged. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 WTF? the Jab shaft is 4140 steel billet, machined by CAMit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 WTF? the Jab shaft is 4140 steel billet, machined by CAMit. The conrods, the camshaft, piston/rocker pins, rockers and drive flange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 One out of six - the pistons. You people do not know what you're talking about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 The scimitar prop hub? Laurie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 The conrods, the camshaft, piston/rocker pins, rockers and drive flange. Keep digging, Bex, the hole is getting deeper.... About the only things you've stated correctly so far are the pistons and the fact that "Jab bottom ends seem to be as good as it gets by any World standards". Crank, cam and rods are from 4140, not sure about the rockers but they are machined from rod and probably 4140, as are the flanges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dafydd Llewellyn Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 The scimitar prop hub?Laurie Not part of the engine, I suggest. I don't know who's making those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKW Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Flyingtornardo did you miss the part about them being built in South Africa? Struth Deb, don't stir him up again! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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