facthunter Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Too much GUESSING. We're past that stage if we want to get somewhere. There are a few facts to consider that I feel are critical. You won't get the necessary action in this matter, from people who are out of business. Don't force that outcome as it's the worst possible one. People who own Jabiru's shouldn't be subject to a situation/circumstance, YOU wouldn't like to happen to you rule wise. Some risk is part of this "SPORT" and it's not as high as some occupations.. You are not forced to participate. You choose to. You are also a part of the process of limiting the risk(s) by how you conduct yourself. There are MUCH worse powerplants out there that I for one would love to be able to fly behind eg a genuine Gnome et Rhone or even a good replica. Or any of that early stuff Anzani were crude things, but so what? When I get on my motorbike with many of the psycho's who are on the road, flying seems restively safe. At least I have the major say in how safe it is. The buck stops with us, and that is the way it should be. Nev 4 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Did you read the RAAus letter to CASA Nev? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I like Monk, I like his style. But i wonder if this is the best approach. I hope it was considered properly, it seams a real " playing the man and not the ball" response. Fingers crossed CASA dont behave the way they have for the past 20 years when confronted. Michael is very pro- active in his style, he was the one who has been to the minister three times now on our behalf, straight over the top of CASA. That got the RAAus some respect and indicated that we are not just going to take it without pushing back a little. Board fully supports his actions, and always has. He is currently working with Jab to assist in steering them in a direction that is good for us all. We are very lucky to have MM and the CEO M Linke, they are both 'do it' type people and are fully supported by a very cohesive and capable board ATM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Yes Merv. That letter was written to serve a purpose. I'm following on from Dafydd's comments with the experimental concept. The 51% rule is part of a learning aspect we talk about too, but don't adhere to, but just pay a sort of lip service to. Knowledge is better than stricter rules and confining regulation, beyond the absolute minimum required. Maj Good to hear what you have just said. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Jabiru have stated many many times that the engine is perfectly reliable with proper maintenance, obviously the RAA technical certifications aren't worth the paper they are written on.CASA needs to audit the registry and see if the L2 mechanics know how to maintain Jabiru engines correctly. Not all are required, or choose to maintain Jab engines........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Yea Maj, like I said, I like him and his style. Im just worried about the 'feel' of the repsonse. Nobody would argue that RAA needs to hold some sort of ground and draw a line in the sand with CASA, I just hope this line doesnt put CASA in a defensive posture.Thats never good ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Yea Maj, like I said, I like him and his style. Im just worried about the 'feel' of the repsonse. Nobody would argue that RAA needs to hold some sort of ground and draw a line in the sand with CASA, I just hope this line doesnt put CASA in a defensive posture.Thats never good ! CASA needs to be forced into abiding by the recommendations of the recent senate enquiry, together with the ten points laid down for government departments to abide by. So far there is no I dictation that they intend to do so. The new administrator takes the reigns sometime in January...lets see what spin he puts on it all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 AOPA have had to stand up firmly to the CASA, Motz when necessary. They will get over it. Going over the top to the Minister is not punishable by whipping, and it is a right we have as individuals and collectively. It won't hurt to remind CASA of that. At the end of they day they will all be "friends " again, but I hope not dependent on doing their absolute bidding without the right to question and have a strong view. Nev 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I fully support and applaud Michaels current letter...he has been working on it for a few days, and has always sought board imput and approval........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Thats good Maj, Im glad the board are behind him. Im sure they would need to be anyway before any public comment like this is made. Im not condemning the letter, im just concerned with 'picking a fight ' with CASA. I have a motto..never pick a fight your not sure you can win...lol.. I have a few scares, but so far its served me well..:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bandit Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Michael is very pro- active in his style, he was the one who has been to the minister three times now on our behalf, straight over the top of CASA. That got the RAAus some respect and indicated that we are not just going to take it without pushing back a little. Board fully supports his actions, and always has. He is currently working with Jab to assist in steering them in a direction that is good for us all. We are very lucky to have MM and the CEO M Linke, they are both 'do it' type people and are fully supported by a very cohesive and capable board ATM. Isnt this a little late ?? If RA-Aus did this a couple of years ago then we (owners) would have saved a lot of $$ and heartache and CASA wouldn't be doing what they are now ??? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 A couple of years ago.....what was happening then....... Oh that's right we'd just had the extraordinary general meeting where the majority of the current board where in the front rows of the members section pointing out the failings of the board at the time and we were genuinely wondering whether RAAus would survive...... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Hello F_T I am at a loss what you are trying to say this is in regard to the post you deleted, "I received it you know". You went on and mentioned RAAus technical certificates are not worth the paper they are written on. O.K. Seeing you have a lot opinions... What should we do about the issue? I did mention:- that under your own admission that you are not a member. However I am still wondering what you are flying? With * non-member* not flying, what is the big case for you having o much input when you are not committing aviation. Regards KP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 CASA needs to be forced into abiding by the recommendations of the recent senate enquiry, together with the ten points laid down for government departments to abide by. So far there is no I dictation that they intend to do so. The new administrator takes the reigns sometime in January...lets see what spin he puts on it all... """""""""""Hope he comes out with some good direction."""" OK Maj Who is steering the CASA boat now? McCormick I do believe he left in August, he was kept back till the Forsyth enquired was completed, that is completed. The sad thing "recommendations" they are only recommendations not governing principals so CASA can choose to ignore a recommendation. The minister has got to do something as yet he is not even excited. Regards KP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Keith I didn't edit my post take your tablets mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Isnt this a little late ?? If RA-Aus did this a couple of years ago then we (owners) would have saved a lot of $$ and heartache and CASA wouldn't be doing what they are now ??? Problem with that thinking is Jab (or users for that matter) have never admitted to their engine having significant problems...CASA is now making them......do you really for one moment think they would have listened to RAA anyway ?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 """""""""""Hope he comes out with some good direction.""""OK Maj Who is steering the CASA boat now? McCormick I do believe he left in August, he was kept back till the Forsyth enquired was completed, that is completed. The sad thing "recommendations" they are only recommendations not governing principals so CASA can choose to ignore a recommendation. The minister has got to do something as yet he is not even excited. Regards KP. There s an acting administrator in place at the moment....his name is on the top of the 'instrument'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Page Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Keith I didn't edit my post take your tablets mate OK......T_B Just one story would be OK.. Not on for them one for me. I could copy and paste it here for all to see.. You still have not answered the questions and the forum members are waiting with baited breath as to your answers. We all know your are not a member BUT that drifter on your avatar raises a question or two. Regards KP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powerin Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Seen a tecknam with a one patch on wing and having flap repaired for a crackanyway i dont like them so ill start accumulating anecdotal information and lobby CASA to investigate these well known structural problems. By all means!! Do it! I fly Teccies and I really like them....but if there really IS a structural problem I want to know about it. I want Tecnam to produce a safe aircraft and would welcome an investigation. I don't understand why you don't want the same to happen at Jabiru. Don't assume people here are pushing for action just because they "don't like them". Sure, there are some that bash for fun, but don't dismiss valid concerns because you have an emotional or financial attachment to Jabiru. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadstick Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Why cant the regulator do their job? what is there to hide? if there aren't any problems with the power plant in question then nothing will happen! if there is then it will be identified once and for all and fixed! win win. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Keith take a pill mate, you're going to take a hit on your Jabiru regardless of my circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Isn't jab investigating itself, and going to produce " their report " Bewilds me why for example.....Camit submit a "report" as well.....hell, they've been onboard from day one, and have proven mods addressing issues.....drop this report on casa's desk and let's see what happins. This current "survey" whatever that jab are doing, from what I'm reading here, it's a damn joke. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Powerin, i couldnt give a stuff about Tecnam, i dont own one have never flown in one and dont care if i never do. Therefore i wont be making noisy representation to authorities based upon selected information. Seems some of the noisiest and consistant protagonists admit not owning of wanting to even perform work on Jabirus. Acting out of concern for other people it seems. With enough repeated noise, it becomes assumed that its fact. The Data isnt detailed enough to support even pub talk let alone action taken by CASA. When this is raised somehow only Jabiru problems go unreported and therfore data is biased???? If you think CASA or RAA wont respond to the constant badgering from respected board members and CFI around the country then you dont know how they work. Perception is everything. I believe several reports have been sent to SASAO demanding action, look back through messages youll see members here crowing about having done this and no action taken. What im illustrating is a feature of our screwed up liability system where even a very small number of vocal dissenters can force govt to act due to the unacceptance of risk and potential for litigation. In this case i think the action is far greater than expected and has frightened a few and theres some conciliatory language now. Even senior RAA have, in the past, made public comment in media that they are concernd about the issue after a aircraft crashed due to fuel problems. The latest letter from Monck is good and we should all be behind this push. ......as you never know the well documented albiet unreported, serious structural cracks in Tecnams might be the next grounding.......what about the ridiculous risk in flying aircraft mad of fabric!!!!! If Casa getaway with this, they can do anything they want and it will already have big impacts outside Jabiru How do you think a financier will look at RAA aircraft, if by one stupid draft proposal they loose their loan security. What about insurers? The ramifications are to ALL OF US 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 So are the safety ramifications should they actually achieve what we all want them to...A safer engine.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01rmb Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Guys It is all out interest to stand behind RA-Aus and the president in this. It does not matter how we got here but what is important is to not let it get any worse and work on a proactive solution so it never happens again. It might start with Jabiru but the privileges obtained through LSA and the standards that allows cheap aviation needs to be maintained and a strong position needs to be uniformly presented so we can all keep flying. First Jabiru but what will they do next if not kept in check? The message needs to be - Don't mess with the privileges we have, help improve safety but don't destroy the recreational aviation industry in trying achieve it. LSA was initiated as a compromise that higher risk was going to be accepted as a compromise for the far lower associated cost. That is why we can fly a $80-120k aircraft rather than the typical $500k GA aircraft. This privilege needs to be protected. The focus should be to keep CASA from crippling the industry but also to get Jabiru to focus on improving their engines as is their requirement under the LSA standards. Jabiru (and every other manufacturer) should be enforced to actively investigate and report on defects with improvements where necessary - Maybe introduce financial penalties for non compliance. This is the role of the regulator - not to hurt the guys who have shelled out their savings on an aircraft or are running a business. With the support of others who have experience of what can go wrong and how to fix them, there should be more than enough information to make huge improvements. Ian Bent has answers - maybe not all, but a lot and he has a lot of research to back up his position. Other possible solutions include running mogas and most of the exhaust valve problems will disappear, change the maintenance schedules to clean the valves and cylinder heads at 500 hours to stop fouling causing issues, improve the through bolts better threads and less stress risers to prevent breakages, get rid of the alternator currently used to have better electrical power and improve harmonic damping, replace parts at a schedule before they typically fail... Even with increased maintenance the costs are still going to much less that the alternative (forced landing or other engine makes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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