Oscar Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Turbs, you have NO functional understanding of: 1) the way in which CASA routinely operates 2) the CASA internal politics that led to this Instrument 3) the risk assessment algorithm used by the FAA - which CASA claims to have followed but has demonstrably failed to even understand properly 4) the communications between CASA and the FOI inquisitor which demonstrate the degree to which CASA failed to properly assess the data it demanded from RAA before promulgating the Instrument. HOWEVER, all of the above is incidental to the fact that your convoluted, obfuscatory, illogical and frequently self-refuting 'conclusions' drawing on absolutely BS 'statistics' is, in the grand scheme of things, completely and utterly irrelevant. I am fairly sure that you could easily construct an argument that Jabiru was the second shooter on the grassy knoll, given your quite evident alternate universe appreciation of the facts. You WILL be remembered - which I believe is the result you crave - for the statement: 'there is an inbuilt Natural Justice system within CASA' That will go down in history as up there with the Catholic Church's denunciation of Galileo for being a monumental, ideologically-bound, utter and complete mega-load of bovine fertiliser. The wonderful thing about human intelligence is, we can distinguish between truth and transparent fiction. The puzzling thing, is why we ( and I include myself in the collective 'we'), bother to read - let alone respond respectfully - to your inanities. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Well Australia is a land of free speech Oscar, and it may well be that you are a member of the CASA furniture with access to their every secret. Oh, and people can judge for themselves the CASA access path for Natural Justice just by clicking on the link. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 people can judge for themselves the CASA access path for Natural Justice just by clicking on the link. You are a funny man, Turbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Whether you GET natural justice depends on the strength and execution of your case, but nevertheless the path is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 You make a lot of assumptions. That's all they are "ought to have been and probably were , should, probably were, would ,would. Not much meat in all of that. You are an apologist for an organisation with a poor record in dealing with people and PEOPLE fly and build planes. If you don't believe me contact someone who has been on the receiving end of their actions. (and don't just tell me they must have deserved it). Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Talk to the (ex) CAR35 / Part 21M engineers who keep Australia flying. The BS that the intellectual midgets now in CASA have managed to substitute for proficiency, is the primary cause of an exodus of the finest aero-engineers we have had over several decades, from the game. READ the Forsyth Review report. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 You make a lot of assumptions. That's all they are "ought to have been and probably were , should, probably were, would ,would. Not much meat in all of that. You are an apologist for an organisation with a poor record in dealing with people and PEOPLE fly and build planes. If you don't believe me contact someone who has been on the receiving end of their actions. (and don't just tell me they must have deserved it). Nev This is what I said" "If you can show that someone made his own decision and applied it with a stroke of his own pen, you'll have a point, but you would know that a number of people ought to have been, and probably were, involved in the discussions leading up to CASA's decision, it would have been tested and approved by lawyers, and it would have be reviewed and approved by senior management." You came up short on your previous assertion about the stroke of the pen, and the "ought to", "probably were", "would have", were all to make it clear they were suppositions, since I have previously said none of us knows exactly what took place, possibly other than Oscar who is indicating he has some stature within CASA. I'm not an apologist for CASA, just been able to work within the rules over a few decades without drawing attention to myself. I have criticised CASA (or its predecessors) for the parlous state of radio communications due to repeated changes, very poor standard of communication, particularly in terms of what a pilot's responsibilities are, and a few other things. What I have been saying, which you have chosen to ignore is, if you want to make a fuss of the decision CASA made, best you look very carefully at who instigated it and who provided the information, and what information CASA had to make the decision from. The more this goes on, the more certain I am that there's a piece missing. The problems that other people have had or are having with CASA should be looked at on their own merits. Very few people who tell the story yell it against themselves, everyone is sorry once they've been caught, and the record of the case will tell whether they were fairly or unfairly treated. I would agree with you that it would be wrong to say "someone deserved it." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Talk to the (ex) CAR35 / Part 21M engineers who keep Australia flying. The BS that the intellectual midgets now in CASA have managed to substitute for proficiency, is the primary cause of an exodus of the finest aero-engineers we have had over several decades, from the game.READ the Forsyth Review report. Are these the technical people that CASA have allowed to leave? If so, I have outlined the reasons, which are in line with what happens in other DIRD (Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development) sections. There's no reflection on the people, but governments have been offloading liability for their decisions by offloading those decisions. I talked about this on this site a few years ago now, but go no recognition from one of them. The so-called Forsyth Review, was a public consultation process where in the Australian public were given the opportunity to air their views, and has now slipped into history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The so-called Forsyth Review, was a public consultation process where in the Australian public were given the opportunity to air their views, and has now slipped into history. The Aviation Safety Review (Forsyth Report) dated May 2014 had 37 recommendations of which 36 were accepted and approved by the Minister of Aviation Warren Truss. How many of these has CASA implemented to date? Anyone know? Is it a big fat zero as I suspect or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 CASA has ignored forsyth report and is plainly still in the business of furthering commercial aviation. The point you raise is good one, the TEAM at CASA carried out this action, and its all the more damning that any group allowed something based on dubious data analysis to be actioned Legal team you would expect to ask "are we sure" Its actually being positive thinking one small minded person made such a cock up Tech teams are closed as they make no money and cost plenty and often frustrate market minded (or KPI driven) managers with inconvenient practicalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalph Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Turbs, the CASA Industry Complaints Commissioner was approached and her response was, and here I'm paraphrasing: "We've looked into it and it all looks fine and above board to us." It was a bit like asking Victoria Police to investigate Police shootings. A bit like peeing in your pants, it gives you a warm feeling but it still stinks. There are investigations and there are "investigations". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 It's like being in a Lion's cage and complaining to the chief Lion about being bitten by a lion. But it's even worse. The lion might not like you complaining and eat you later for being annoying. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Turbs, the CASA Industry Complaints Commissioner was approached and her response was, and here I'm paraphrasing: "We've looked into it and it all looks fine and above board to us." It was a bit like asking Victoria Police to investigate Police shootings. A bit like peeing in your pants, it gives you a warm feeling but it still stinks.There are investigations and there are "investigations". Well, bearing in mind I've been "Oscared" once today, and all but accused of being the CASA PR Manager, I find her comments very interesting, and it supports my suspicion that there's another smell here apart from wee. I have indicated a course of action several times, and thought Col might be up to it but there's nothing but silence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 It's like being in a Lion's cage and complaining to the chief Lion about being bitten by a lion. But it's even worse. The lion might not like you complaining and eat you later for being annoying. Nev That's step 1, not the end of your options, you can then take the next low cost option of ACAT which CASA does not control, but based on Gandalph's report of a confident answer, I'd say once again that it might pay to make your own phone calls and send your own emails to establish exactly what the facts are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The reality is Turbs, you cant beat CASA at anything....they simply cant be trusted, they have no interest in promoting or even fostering aviation.... They are the most inflexible, difficult, nonsensical, self contradicting, and ridiculous organisation I have ever dealt with or will ever deal with.... If it was 1950 or i was in a corrupt dictatorship I would understand, but how this inept behaviour has been encouraged and funded by an Australian govt is beyond me... Im giving it two years and if things haven't changed dramatically for the better...im selling the plane and giving up... Cant be bothered dealing with this crap for another 30 years.... where there is smoke there is fire.....one only has to read any thread on here or that other forum about CASA to know its a bush fire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Are these the technical people that CASA have allowed to leave? If so, I have outlined the reasons, which are in line with what happens in other DIRD (Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development) sections.There's no reflection on the people, but governments have been offloading liability for their decisions by offloading those decisions. I talked about this on this site a few years ago now, but go no recognition from one of them. The so-called Forsyth Review, was a public consultation process where in the Australian public were given the opportunity to air their views, and has now slipped into history. FFS - you do not know the role of CAR35/Part 21M engineers and you expect ANYBODY to take ANYTHING you say seriously? It's not even worth drawing your attention to significant matters of which you are, quite obviously, totally ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Clearly, Turbs, you have not persuaded many to your cause. I know the feeling so it's probably not lethal. I have a considerable personal experience of how the organisation operates. If it does things right in a significant way, in the future, I will be among the first to cheer. I've been waiting and hoping . The people I know who are leaving the Industry have had enough of just hoping and being constantly disappointed. There is a time when even the most addicted aviator comes to their senses and gets out. That's unfortunately where I think it is at..Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 FFS - you do not know the role of CAR35/Part 21M engineers and you expect ANYBODY to take ANYTHING you say seriously? It's not even worth drawing your attention to significant matters of which you are, quite obviously, totally ignorant. NO, I was being very RESTRAINED in my comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The reality is Turbs, you cant beat CASA at anything....they simply cant be trusted, they have no interest in promoting or even fostering aviation.... They are the most inflexible, difficult, nonsensical, self contradicting, and ridiculous organisation I have ever dealt with or will ever deal with.... If it was 1950 or i was in a corrupt dictatorship I would understand, but how this inept behaviour has been encouraged and funded by an Australian govt is beyond me... Im giving it two years and if things haven't changed dramatically for the better...im selling the plane and giving up... Cant be bothered dealing with this crap for another 30 years....where there is smoke there is fire.....one only has to read any thread on here or that other forum about CASA to know its a bush fire! I don't know how to break this to you Dr, but CASA are a SAFETY Authority, and as a result, about as popular as Workcover. Promoting recreational aviation courtesy of the taxpayers pocket is not going to happen; you are responsible for promoting your recreational pursuits. As far as selling your plane is concerned, only a few posts ago I gave an example of another sport which has flourished for decades by administering its own business without attracting action from the government. If your problems relate to the class of your aircraft then the issues might be blurred a bit I agree, because your association is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrZoos Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I think you need to agree to disagree....its now getting ugly for spectators 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Clearly, Turbs, you have not persuaded many to your cause. I know the feeling so it's probably not lethal.I have a considerable personal experience of how the organisation operates. If it does things right in a significant way, in the future, I will be among the first to cheer. I've been waiting and hoping . The people I know who are leaving the Industry have had enough of just hoping and being constantly disappointed. There is a time when even the most addicted aviator comes to their senses and gets out. That's unfortunately where I think it is at..Nev If you're talking about Dad's Army v CASA, no, I haven't seen too many hit the phones to find out what the facts are. On the other hand around 9,000 RAA members appear rather underwhelmed at the assertions about the CASA monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I wrote to the Forsyth lot with the complaint that CASA were actually HOSTILE to my safety and I proceeded to prove it. Just because they have "safety" in their name doesn't make it so. They are a bureaucracy and they are driven by bureaucratic goals which consist of trying to get more power, and the staffing and promotions which would follow that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 Turbs you keep using disparaging terms to win your point. Dad's army etc. A better argument wouldn't include such terms.. You are capable of it. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 By all means - how about CASA criticisers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 What do they call CASA? Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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