Speaking on the radio

[aplund]

1. Type the location/events line by line on a spreadsheet, with the phrase on each following line. That way you create the element of surprise.2. Record the locations/events on a CD with the answers a convenient period behind, leaving a big gap at first, then reducing the gap gradually to real time; you really want the standard phrases to be coming out of your subconscious rather than the coupole of seconds it takes to think. Just be tatient becaise that will take quite some time.

This is an interesting idea for an exercise. If I understand what you've written correctly, you'd have a random list of:

 

LOCATION, EVENT

 

like:

 

Gympie, Join CCT midfield crosswind

 

Wondai, inbound (10 South, 3500')

 

Watts Bridge, Departing circuit from downwind

 

...

 

And then you flash them up on the screen to and read out the full call.

 

I must admit to not understanding fully your point number 2. Do you mean create audio which just has the location/event, then a 20 second pause, then the correct readback, (rinse and repeat)?

 

 

[turboplanner]

One sequence you could type line by line is from start up.

 

Pre Taxy

 

(call phrase)

 

Pre Take Off

 

(call phrase)

 

Circuit calls

 

(call phrases)

 

After Landing call

 

(call phrase)

 

You scroll down so you see the event and have to call it, then you scroll to see if you got it right (stops you from subconsciuosly reading the answers on a page)

 

You create the audio for practice in the car going to work etc.

 

You hear: Pre Taxy

 

You give what you think is the correct call

 

The answer is heard a little later

 

You play the audio in a loop.

 

Drives you nuts, but you learn fast.

 

 

[Chocolate]

So how does a "clear of runway" call avoid a collision? In general this is a totally unnecessary broadcast.

It's an aid to situational awareness. Used when necessary. OCTR. One example..A regional airline taxiing to the other end might have a heli request to cross the runway behind them. In my experience they all have said yes. As they get to the end and turn around they would want to know that the helicopter is not still within the runway area.

 

 

[Chocolate]

The thread has been very informative for me as a low time pilot. And I certainly took on board Ian's comment about a pilot being judged by others by their radio calls. (Some of my fumbling half wrong calls would certainly alert others to my experience level. ).

 

I would not like to venture into changing the order of the phrases. It has the Swiss cheese effect. It's called a 'normalised violation of the rules' in the safety experts field.

 

The real problem is, from my point of view, not treating the radio for what it is...it's a radio..speak slightly louder and slightly slower. So much of what I hear is completely garbled because it's just said too fast.

 

 

[turboplanner]

We've heard a lot of comments justifying non compliant use of radio, and quite a few of those have been maintaining radio is just for situational awareness in the circuit.

 

Can any of you guys tell me the three mandatory components of a Short AIREP. (The first experience you will have of this is an unexpected call from Centre requesting one).

 

 

[David Isaac]

Ok i'll try, i thought it was 4

 

Aircraft ID

 

Position

 

Time

 

Altitude

 

 

[turboplanner]

Ok i'll try, i thought it was 4Aircraft ID

Position

 

Time

 

Altitude

You're fired

 

 

[David Isaac]

You're fired

Thats good you better find my boss and tell him LOL

 

 

[SDQDI]

Ok i'll try, i thought it was 4Aircraft ID

Position

 

Time

 

Altitude

Think more towards weather related thingys

 

 

[SDQDI]

Please note in my post above I posted cryptically giving a little hint which would make one think I knew the answer which is misleading as while I know what an AIREP is I don't know the 3 main thingys turbs is asking for.

 

For those who may be interested.....

 

Request Rejected

 

?? Even though it says request rejected the link still works!

 

 

[David Isaac]

Ahhh so he wanted the short Airep thingy ... bugga I'll have to go and look it up. I might just be able to save my job. ROFLMAO.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Over three hours of silence probably tells the story anyway, and apart from anything else is an indictment on the poor standard of CASA's website.

 

You're likely to get the call when the weather is deteriorating and becoming unpredictable, and there could be an aircraft or two being guided out of or pointed away from VMC, so there could be an emergency aspect to it.

 

The key points when a request for a Short AIRP is received are:

 

1. Cloud type, amount, base

 

2. Visibility

 

3. Significant wind variation

 

Given the circumstances the person requesting it will be looking for a rapid response.

 

This triggers your MET knowledge, so Elders Weather, Willywinds etc will be no use to you. You will need to be able to identify the cloud

 

The significant wind variation is from the AFOR you collected before your flight, so another reason to be up to scratch on MET

 

We can let David off because the perspex on the Auster will be so yellow, that all he can see is a sunset, but the silence does raise the issue of how many people are flying without a Flight Radiotelephone Operator Licence.

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

So how does a "clear of runway" call avoid a collision? In general this is a totally unnecessary broadcast.

.

At might local airport there is a dip in the runway. When im lined up I can't tell if the preceding aircraft has vacated the runway until he has broadcast 'clear of runway'.

 

 

[dutchroll]

You're fired

There are 4 components to a short AIREP. The 4th is any significant weather including severe or moderate turbulence, thunderstorms, moderate or severe icing, hail, line squalls, standing waves or winds of 40KT or more within 2,000FT of ground level.

You're fired too.

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

The real problem is, from my point of view, not treating the radio for what it is...it's a radio..speak slightly louder and slightly slower. So much of what I hear is completely garbled because it's just said too fast.[/quote

Most people talk way too fast imho. I hear experience pilots talking so fast that you can't understand what they are saying. Even though they have perfect aviation phraseology, there communication is poor. I'd give one local instructor a d- for his radio work ...lol

[David Isaac]

I wish you could blow Raspberries on this thread ... LOL

 

 

[SDQDI]

 

I wish you could blow Raspberries on this thread ... LOL

[turboplanner]

Well that stuffs that then.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Well that stuffs that then.

Yep we are both fired ... but at least we have the raspberries ...ROFLMAO

 

 

[M61A1]

Over three hours of silence probably tells the story anyway, and apart from anything else is an indictment on the poor standard of CASA's website..

Consider perhaps that your question was poorly worded. The items were found hours ago, but your use of the word

"mandatory" is not used in the text regarding AIRREPs.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Having said all that, I've never been asked for a short airep in my career.

 

We get a lot of ATC requests for "wind and ride" reports at high altitude, and spot wind checks close to the airport, but that's about it. Sometimes in gusty conditions they'll ask about windshear too, though we're supposed to report that (and turbulence) if it's significant. If it's different to what is on the ATIS we'll normally tell them anyway.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I was asked for two in one afternoon by ATC who were trying to get three aircraft in western Victoria home.

 

 

[Head in the clouds]

It's been an interesting discussion about the use of standard phraseology but I think some people are a little too anal about it.

 

I first received my radio licence in the early 1980s and since then there have been far too many changes to the recommended procedures for anyone to be able to keep up with at all times, so the tendency is to use that which makes the most sense and which is most likely to clearly convey the intended meaning.

 

For example, IIRC, when I first started broadcasting, an airborne broadcast to other aircraft in the air or on the ground began "Traffic Location, Callsign, My Location, Alt, Intentions/Request etc ...", not long after that it became "All Stations Location, ...etc", some years later someone decided it was nonsense to broadcast all this to All Stations since movement information was often not relevant to the local clubhouse, for example, so they went back to Traffic, but placed it after the Location. This was probably implemented by some desk jockey who had no practical use of radio because what OK says is very valid ...

 

In general, missing the first word of a transmission has nothing to do with the broadcaster not using the radio properly. You can key the mike for ten seconds before speaking and then speak very clearly, loudly and slowly, and many people will still miss understanding the first word they hear. I'm told this has to do with certain brain 'receptors', whether that's right or wrong I don't know, but I've always suffered that particular problem myself, as have many others I've discussed it with.

 

Consequently, though I'm a staunch supporter of the need for standardising as much as possible and practicable in aviation, and certainly I agree that the current procedures are what should be being taught in the FTFs, I tend to use Traffic Location rather than the other way around. This isn't due to any intention to 'buck the system' because I don't think about my broadcasts before making them, I've been doing them so long I don't generally need to. For example yesterday I broadcast "All Stations Location ... " and later in the clubhouse someone picked me up on it, saying that phrase was changed years ago. What they didn't realise though, was that I was broadcasting to all stations - I was alerting aircraft and people on the ground/in the hangars to a hazard.

 

Other non-standard phrases that come to mind are generally used by 'old hands' who have become quite dyed-in-the-wool and aren't likely to make minor changes to their procedures unless they actually make some difference, and many of the changes I've seen over the years really do nothing at all. I do like the addition of the Location at the end of the broadcast though.

 

Some of those rather IMHO 'irrelevant' changes that, whether used one way or the previous way, make no difference to understanding -

 

'Feet wet/feet dry' was military originally I think and is still used by many offshore helicopters but these days should be 'over-water/over-land'

 

'Maintaining five thousand' became 'Cruising five thousand'

 

'Departs' became 'Departing'

 

Or perhaps the latter two were the other way around, but really, did those 'essential changes' actually make any difference to peoples' understanding of the message being passed?

 

And - I don't fly/pilot international so I don't know the answer, but are the 'current' phrases part of the ICAO Standard? Meaning - are we using, or supposed to be using, exactly the same all over the world yet? I understood that was the intention when the whole standardisation thing 'took-off' in the early 1990s, but if you listen to any busy international airport Tower, Departure and Approach you will hear quite a variety of the old and the new from the pilots which indicates to me that global standards either haven't been implemented or aren't generally adhered to.

 

Ironically, in the 1970s and 80s there was an ageing character on the Gold Coast who was a Commercial 'lifer' and whose broadcasts were more clearly understood by everyone than anyone else's but in my experience he never made broadcasts that contained much standard phrase.

 

Commonplace exchanges between him and the Tower might be -

 

Coolie Tower, XYZ 12 miles north, two thousand, inbound with Echo, request clearance.

 

XYZ Tower, clearance not available before time 06, remain north of Jupiters.

 

Absolutely impossible old chap, late for lunch don't you see?

 

XYZ Tower, clearance available, make visual approach number two to ABC, report visual with the 767, descend to one thousand.

 

Jolly good show Coolie, cleared, one thousand and all that, I can see the big white one ...

 

He gave us so many chuckles that everyone listened carefully when he was broadcasting

 

 

[dutchroll]

Some of those rather IMHO 'irrelevant' changes that, whether used one way or the previous way, make no difference to understanding -

'Feet wet/feet dry' was military originally I think and is still used by many offshore helicopters but these days should be 'over-water/over-land'

 

'Maintaining five thousand' became 'Cruising five thousand'

 

'Departs' became 'Departing'

 

Or perhaps the latter two were the other way around, but really, did those 'essential changes' actually make any difference to peoples' understanding of the message being passed?

Feet wet/dry is a unique military phrase and those types of unique military phrases still exist of course.

"Cruising" became "maintaining" to avoid confusion with cruise-climb terminology (though airlines rarely ever use cruise climbs, but rather step climbs).

 

"Departs" is just bad grammar - speaking in the 3rd person when you're referring to yourself. This is dutchroll's opinion anyway.

 

And - I don't fly/pilot international so I don't know the answer, but are the 'current' phrases part of the ICAO Standard? Meaning - are we using, or supposed to be using, exactly the same all over the world yet?

In AIP anything which is non-ICAO standard phraseology is denoted with a solid black dot next to it. Most of our phraseology is ICAO standard.

Adherence to standard phraseology by pilots varies around the world. I've spent my life flying internationally as well as domestically and non-adherence to it, unless in exceptional circumstances, tends to be confusing. I've heard a number of stuff-ups especially in compliance with ATC instructions overseas due to non-standard terminology. I imagine ATC find that quite irritating.

 

 

[PapaFox]

3rd person broadcasting is spreading like a virus around here, even by instructors. I've just had to suck it up and accept that as the new normal for some people. Still bugs me though