CHECK THIS ! OH CASA AGAIN !

[Happyflyer]

Some of you guys are being very harsh on a fellow pilot. We have judge, jury and executioners here. He won't be the first nor the last, no one was hurt. Hopefully he'll go on and have a great career, like this guy did:

 

QAM - The Last Landing of Mirage A3-16

 

I do think that as this was a commercial operation carrying a passenger the ATSB should have investigated, but just because they haven't, doesn't mean CASA won't get into him in their own good time.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I think like OME said having the atsb investigate an equipment failure is understandable but why on earth would you expect them to investigate something that is so obviously pilot induced? As it is the atsb doesn't have enough resources to investigate all our Raa fatals so why would we even wish them to investigate something so obvious?

 

 

[Camel]

I think like OME said having the atsb investigate an equipment failure is understandable but why on earth would you expect them to investigate something that is so obviously pilot induced? As it is the atsb doesn't have enough resources to investigate all our Raa fatals so why would we even wish them to investigate something so obvious?

Because the commercial pilot operating is not competent ! Please bear in mind I still use and teach BUMFISH for RAA pilots BRAKES, UNDERCARRIAGE, MIXTURE, FUEL, INSTRUMENT, SWITCHES, HATCHES & HARNESSES ! Done for a reason ! Generic landing checks for all ! In case you fly a retractable ! Don't forget this guy has 9000 hours and is commercial ! A private pilot would be diffferent ! Just a mistake ! A professional should do routine checks blindfolded !

 

 

[turboplanner]

Do you fly Camel?

 

 

[nathan_c]

Wow Camel you are being extremely harsh on this gentlemans flying ability.... do you have a personal issue with the guy?

 

He wont be the first, and he wont be the last person to ever do a wheels up, and if you do any study into human factors you will quickly realise that the mistake is a lot easier to make then you might realise (no I have not done it).

 

Distraction is often a dangerous thing that can very easily happen to even the best of us. When was the last time you made a slight error in the cockpit? If you really do teach people then I am surprised you have not seen how easy it is for people to miss things when they are under the pump or distracted by something the brain deems to be more important at the time.

 

Give the guy a break.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I think like OME said having the atsb investigate an equipment failure is understandable but why on earth would you expect them to investigate something that is so obviously pilot induced? As it is the atsb doesn't have enough resources to investigate all our Raa fatals so why would we even wish them to investigate something so obvious?

The Investigation would look at the systems and methods the operator uses, the oversight, testing and checking of pilots, past history. Was the warning horn working, if not was maintenance an issue. They looked ar this one. Investigation: AO-2015-121 - Wheels-up landing involving a Cessna 172RG, VH-HTP, at Elcho Island Aerodrome, NT on 14 October 2015

And he was a PPL.

 

 

[ian00798]

I’m glad camel is so flawless and immune to error, for most people we are susceptible to many human factors that can cause routine checks to be missed. For many thousands of landings this guy has got the gear down correctly. Undoubtedly this was not his finest night flying, but rather than hanging him in the town square as camel wants to I would suggest we actually all try and learn from the mistake and try not to make it ourselves.

 

Camel, do you have a personal problem with this guy? You are going after him very viciously with absolutely no knowledge of the actual facts of the incident. Everybody on this forum likes to complain how viciously CASA goes after people but there are people on here who make CASA look gentle and forgiving.

 

 

[Garfly]

This can be a lesson to all of us. The integration of digital devices with cockpit workflows has brought heaps of benefits to flyers, including safety benefits, but it takes a while for enough war stories to trickle down through the sub-culture about hidden or unforeseen problems. But as word gets around - like this thread - the 'hangar talk' remedy eventually kicks in. New commonplace dos and don'ts are born. (All part of sub-cultural maintenance ;-)

 

For example, this has caused me to go check my iPhone for those new "Don't Disturb" features designed for driving.

 

It seems that you can choose for it to switch in automatically - by motion detection - or manually by way of the swipe-up control panel. So hopefully that won't happen to me now.

 

Oh, wait, my wheels are always down.

 

 

[Camel]

Do you fly Camel?

Yes I do and you are very aware of that ! You are very uneducated very obviously !

I hold a PPL and an RAA CFI rating with APA ! How about you can you fly ? Wheels up no big deal ehh ? TWICE !!!!

 

 

[Camel]

Wow Camel you are being extremely harsh on this gentlemans flying ability.... do you have a personal issue with the guy?He wont be the first, and he wont be the last person to ever do a wheels up, and if you do any study into human factors you will quickly realise that the mistake is a lot easier to make then you might realise (no I have not done it).

 

Distraction is often a dangerous thing that can very easily happen to even the best of us. When was the last time you made a slight error in the cockpit? If you really do teach people then I am surprised you have not seen how easy it is for people to miss things when they are under the pump or distracted by something the brain deems to be more important at the time.

 

Give the guy a break.

Two wheels up landings is not just a minor error ! You are rude and very forgiving of a commmercial pilot with 9000 hours ! Commercial pilots are taught discipline ! Private pilotes are taught disapline ! Commmercial pilots are meant to have a very high experience and disapline ! Two of the same mistakes is not good !

 

You give him a break and you fly with him ! I wouldn't for all the tea in China !

 

 

[ian00798]

Well I’m struggling to see the nose wheel failing to come down was his fault, but hey, guess we might as well blame everything on him.

 

Frankly I don’t think much of a PPL holder who most likely hasn’t spent a lot of time flying anything complex slagging off a very experienced pilot. All I can say is I hope you don’t have a human factors endorsement on your pilot certificate, as your clearly aren’t at the required standard. And I hope for your sake when you make a mistake people are more just and fair than you are to your fellow aviators.

 

And for the record, I would much rather fly with him rather than be one of your students.

 

 

[Camel]

I’m glad camel is so flawless and immune to error, for most people we are susceptible to many human factors that can cause routine checks to be missed. For many thousands of landings this guy has got the gear down correctly. Undoubtedly this was not his finest night flying, but rather than hanging him in the town square as camel wants to I would suggest we actually all try and learn from the mistake and try not to make it ourselves.Camel, do you have a personal problem with this guy? You are going after him very viciously with absolutely no knowledge of the actual facts of the incident. Everybody on this forum likes to complain how viciously CASA goes after people but there are people on here who make CASA look gentle and forgiving.

Dear Mr Ian , I'm obviously offended by your commment ! I know you work for ASA ! I've met very good ones ! You are unknown and offensive ! The pilot is guilty of two wheels up landings ! He used a friend to stop an investigation on a second incident ! The first incident isn't finished yet ! I heard of another C337 pilot before doing two in the same crash comics in WA some years ago ! It clearly shows poor airmanship ! I do not know this man but find it very sad he has no regard for checking ! Would you have the same attitude if he landed a 747 fulll of people with wheels up ? Please answer !

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Two wheels up landings is not just a minor error ! You are rude and very forgiving of a commmercial pilot with 9000 hours ! Commercial pilots are taught discipline ! Private pilotes are taught disapline ! Commmercial pilots are meant to have a very high experience and disapline ! Two of the same mistakes is not good ! You give him a break and you fly with him ! I wouldn't for all the tea in China !

You say he has had two wheels up landings and therefore made the same mistake twice. Please tell us the circumstances of his other wheels up landing.

 

 

[biggles]

Two wheels up landings is not just a minor error ! You are rude and very forgiving of a commmercial pilot with 9000 hours ! Commercial pilots are taught discipline ! Private pilotes are taught disapline ! Commmercial pilots are meant to have a very high experience and disapline ! Two of the same mistakes is not good !You give him a break and you fly with him ! I wouldn't for all the tea in China !

As I indicated in post #21 I'm almost certain he was flying a twin, on charter to his operation when the nose wheel failed to deploy . Therefore that one could not be considered a wheels up landing ...... Bob

 

 

[w3stie]

Camel you have used up all your exclamation marks. Please use the numeral 1 in future posts. Yours sincerely, the grammar police.

 

 

[Camel]

Read it please !

 

 

[Camel]

As I indicated in post #21 I'm almost certain he was flying a twin, on charter to his operation when the nose wheel failed to deploy . Therefore that one could not be considered a wheels up landing ...... Bob

The previous incident was in Karatha !

 

 

[nathan_c]

Im not trying to come across as rude Camel, and I don't know the guy or his story but if his first wheels up was truly because of a nosewheel that failed to extend, you cant really have a go at him for the first one...

 

But you know what, I would go fly with him tomorrow because he self reported it like you are meant to, was honest enough to admit the distraction was caused by his phone and not try and make up some other excuse. Also while 'banning yourself from using your phone again' may seem a little light on the corrective side, to be honest what else are you meant to do as a fix?

 

 

[ian00798]

Dear Mr Ian , I'm obviously offended by your commment ! I know you work for ASA ! I've met very good ones ! You are unknown and offensive ! The pilot is guilty of two wheels up landings ! He used a friend to stop an investigation on a second incident ! The first incident isn't finished yet ! I heard of another C337 pilot before doing two in the same crash comics in WA some years ago ! It clearly shows poor airmanship ! I do not know this man but find it very sad he has no regard for checking ! Would you have the same attitude if he landed a 747 fulll of people with wheels up ? Please answer !

Well frankly I suspect he would be offended by what your posting about him, however you seem to give very little consideration to that.

 

Who I work for is irrelevant, I am commenting on my own behalf and in no way representing my employer.

 

Have you got any evidence he used a friend to stop an investigation? Or is this another unfounded hearsay?

 

I’m sure he has a great deal of regard for checking, however he made what is called an error. It turns out that in 9000 hours of flying you will make some of them. Yes I would have exactly the same attitude if it was a fully loaded 747. As a matter of fact an Ansett crew did something like that at Sydney. Rather than attacking the person it makes much more sense to investigate the why and work on more effective defenses.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Nathan, I think he might have had to self report because he put an aircraft on its belly at a public airport with a Federal minister on board!

 

Camel, what happened at Karratha?

 

 

[Camel]

Im not trying to come across as rude Camel, and I don't know the guy or his story but if his first wheels up was truly because of a nosewheel that failed to extend, you cant really have a go at him for the first one...But you know what, I would go fly with him tomorrow because he self reported it like you are meant to, was honest enough to admit the distraction was caused by his phone and not try and make up some other excuse. Also while 'banning yourself from using your phone again' may seem a little light on the corrective side, to be honest what else are you meant to do as a fix?

You can fly with him I won't because the phone part is negligible ! A checklist or a memory check is just that ! I tell people if disturbed during a check start again !

 

The first wheels up was in Karratha, see seven news !

 

I'm not hunting this guy but second one with DC aboard and if it was a 747 tell me you think it would be ok ! He has 9000 hours ! Does he do checks or not ?

 

 

[Happyflyer]

So what happened at Karratha Camel? Did he forget or was it a malfunction?

 

 

[SDQDI]

Investigation: 199700429 - Wheels up landing involving a Cessna Aircraft Company 210L, VH-SKQ, Karratha, Aerodrome, WA on 15 February 1997

 

Only atsb report I could find. Seems if this was the incident there is no way you can blame the pilot for this one.

 

 

[Camel]

Well frankly I suspect he would be offended by what your posting about him, however you seem to give very little consideration to that.Who I work for is irrelevant, I am commenting on my own behalf and in no way representing my employer.

 

Have you got any evidence he used a friend to stop an investigation? Or is this another unfounded hearsay?

 

I’m sure he has a great deal of regard for checking, however he made what is called an error. It turns out that in 9000 hours of flying you will make some of them. Yes I would have exactly the same attitude if it was a fully loaded 747. As a matter of fact an Ansett crew did something like that at Sydney. Rather than attacking the person it makes much more sense to investigate the why and work on more effective defenses.

Thanks for your reply Ian ! You obviously know a little about the Pelair crash ! What's your opinion of that ?

 

I'm not discriminating against you for who you work for ! I feel wheels up and the second time and the circumstances are not good ! My opinion ! To have the head of Casa on board and try make it trivial is not good !

 

I've had a VCA and my situation showed the controller had made a mistake ! A big one and I let it go ! I also had controllers in Canberrra save my bacon ! Very impressed and apppreciative !

 

 

[nathan_c]

Nathan, I think he might have had to self report because he put an aircraft on its belly at a public airport with a Federal minister on board!Camel, what happened at Karratha?

True, but there is a difference between self reporting and admitting something stupid like your phone distracted you, vs self reporting and making up some other reason to make yourself sound better. Thats what I was getting at.

 

Camel, I agree about starting a checklist again (particularly memory checks) if disturbed, but I refuse to lynch someone I dont know and make accusations about their flying ability. You could guarantee this pilot is kicking himself about making this mistake right now, but at the end of the day it was just that, a mistake (unfortunately for him a serious and high visibility one). However I feel its unfair to use this as an excuse to outright attack his flying ability or state that he doesnt do any checks...