onetrack Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 This little Belite Chipper is looking pretty attractive right about now - particularly with an Australian agent. Belite 2 seat Chipper Aircraft Kits | Other Parts & Accessories | Gumtree Australia Yass Valley - Yass | 1163365353 However, I wonder how much the local agent is tacking on for his cut, and what the buyer gets from him, for it? I note that freighting charges, GST, and any Customs duties and charges (of which there are still plenty) aren't included in the quoted price. I reckon a new Revmaster 2300 VW engine added to the kit, would make a very reasonable all-up cost of getting airborne, within a reasonable time span. There's some good videos on YooToob about the Belite Chipper. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 I have been looking at the BlackMax brakes as a refit for the Sav....has anyone had any experience with them? He is also the agent for them...Freebird Aviation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 The agent is pretty coy on Black Max brake pricing - but I also notice you can acquire them off eBay. They look the part, we just need the reviews and feedback from users. Freebird Aviation Australasia :: Making Dreams Simple 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Can't say I find the price too bad, especially with rims included. Black Max BX-1500 - Hydraulic Brake - U/L & Homebuilt | Other Parts & Accessories | Gumtree Australia Yass Valley - Yass | 1112655754 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 I do like the Belite Chipper. As for "agents", unless they are value adding, what's the point? Bringing in 4 kits in one shipment/container and having them "on the floor" ready to go, is probably a way to go..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 An agent for a product should have the product available on the floor, ready to go, and for the buyer to inspect. They should have paid the shipping and importation costs and be able to give a potential buyer a firm, on-the-spot price. In addition, the agent should provide serious levels of support by way of parts and technical backup - and build assistance, too, when it's needed. Anything less, only means the agent is just trying to get a finger in the pie without doing very much for their cut. Quoting prices without GST included is illegal in Australia - and saying that buyers will have to find their own shipping and importation costs, in addition to the purchase cost, means buyers might just as well arrange a deal directly with the manufacturer. 1 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mAgNeToDrOp Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 They may need to fix up their website first, antivirus flagged it - it may be a false positive but I won't risk it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 Magnetodrop - Yes, that's pretty bad, that "chipperaircraft.com" website address is dangerous, in that it has no "http" in the URL - or even better, "https" for a secure site. The "chipperaircraft.com" website is genuine, and opens O.K. for me, but their security issues need addressing. Your antivirus is obviously set to high alert. The manufacturers website is Home | the Chipper Aircraft Co. James Weibe isn't helping things by having multiple websites, with his main concentration on his range of digital LCD gauges, which are likely to be his biggest money-spinner, as compared to his aircraft kits. Belite Experimental Aircraft Experimental Aircraft Kits and Avionics CHIPPER PURCHASING PAGE - Belite Aircraft Belite Experimental Aircraft Belite Kits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mAgNeToDrOp Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Yep, I just clicked on the link in the gumtree advert, antivirus is at default settings. It detected a trojan in one of their web directories: They'll need to fix it up to no scare potential customers away Edit: Sorry no link in the advert, but it does list www dot chipperaircraft dot com which in Chrome you can select, right click and go to website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikePousson Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 The plane is a nice plane. There is a lot of items not included. Check out the attached pdf file. He is puttingRotax 912 engine in his Demo. http://www.beliteaircraft.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/chipper-included.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 O.K, so the basic Chipper kit is 1000lbs (454kgs) gross weight, and a useful load capacity of 430lbs (195kgs), when fitted with an 80HP Rotax 912UL. With 2 POB, and say 85kgs each, that leaves a cargo capacity of 25kgs. If you want the 1200lbs (544kg) gross upgrade, you need to go to a 100HP engine. The upgrade does increase the useful load capacity to 600lbs (272kg), which then gives a healthy cargo capacity of 102kgs, with 2 x 85kg POB. Those figures tend to write off the much cheaper 80HP Revmaster R-2300 engine as an option, as it's around 10-12kgs heavier than the 912UL - and fitting the R-2300 would then lower the useful cargo capacity to a measly 13-15kgs. The basic problem with the Chipper is that the Australian landed price for the Rotax 912 makes the engine much more expensive than the aircraft. That's a real killer when it comes to trying to keep the whole Chipper deal highly affordable. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 It is my opinion and also that of some of my associates that the power figures quoted for VW conversions is often grossly overstated. These engines are heavy at around 78kg and may also have problems with the 4th bearing added to carry gyroscopic loads from the propeller. Let the buyer beware! Don 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 It would be a better deal with a Jabiru motor, then it is much more affordable. No redrive but light, and cheap. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 It is my opinion and also that of some of my associates that the power figures quoted for VW conversions is often grossly overstated. These engines are heavy at around 78kg and may also have problems with the 4th bearing added to carry gyroscopic loads from the propeller. Let the buyer beware! Don The Revmaster R-2300 has only minimal, original VW components. The only thing the R-2300 has, that is remotely VW is the crankcase - and even that is a magnesium special, cast in Brazil.Revmasta produce their own, brand-new design crankshaft, built from high-strength 4340 steel, employing nitrided journals, and boasting an all-new 55mm front thrust bearing - which is the same diameter as the original VW rear thrust bearing. This new magnesium crankcase sports 4 main bearings instead of the 3 main bearings of the original VW engine - and the centre main bearing is a huge 60mm in diameter. The crankshaft sports a longer stroke, and employs a specially-designed 3° taper nose to carry the prop hub. This is an industrial-strength redesign, and makes the Revmaster R-2300 into a dedicated aviation power plant. The R-2300 has all new, lighter and stronger conrods, with stronger and better design cap fasteners. The pistons are a new and improved design, but are a stock Mahle high-strength piston. The hemi cylinder heads and the barrels are all new, cast to Revmasters design, with improved cooling via longer head fins. The heads sport high quality hardened valve seats and stainless steel valves - features usually only seen in industrial diesels. The R-2300 features inbuilt dual-CDI ignition, with 2 x 20 amp inbuilt alternators included as part of the design. The ignition system feeds 8 spark plugs, making for aviation-design redundancy. The engine sports enlarged oil capacity, a high volume oil pump, and an oil cooler as standard fit. Revmaster supply a carburettor of their own design, the Rev-Flo, which is designed to minimise icing. Every R-2300 is fully assembled and test run before shipping, ensuring little chance of assembly problems sneaking in. The R-2300 doesn't use a PSRU, and it produces a genuine, dyno-tested 85HP for takeoff at 3350RPM, with 82HP available for cruise at a continuous 2950RPM. All this for US$8,825, ex-Chino CA. makes for a pleasant change from eye-watering Rotax and even Jabiru prices. The R-2300 also has a 2000 hr TBO. One of the attractive advantages of the R-2300 is the use of stock-standard, off-the-shelf components, such as bearings, rings, valves, valve springs, and pistons, that are very reasonably priced. Possibly the only negative feature of the R-2300 is the lack of any ignition spark advance/retard control. » NEW R-2300 ENGINE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiefuster Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 No import duty payable under AUS FTA on HS code for aircraft kits I understand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 That import duty information is correct - Chapter 88 - Aircraft, spacecraft, and parts thereof But, you do need to supply an Import Declaration to Customs (now known as ACBPS), so GST and any other applicable charges can be assessed. http://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/Factsheets/Documents/importdeclarationsweb.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikePousson Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 The Revmaster 2300 is the best made North American VW Aircraft engine produced. It is not a kit engine like Aerovee or Great Plains. Mr Horvath has been innovating VW engines for racing and aircraft for 40 years. The R2300 that is sold for aircraft been tested at high rpms for several minutes producing 900 hp before self destructing. Every engine coming out of that shop is sent to an independent testing lab and pre run and certified Ok. The only other VW that comes close produced in The US is the Hummel VW. Scott Cassler in Arizona sources all the components from different vendors, does lots of machining and puts out a lot of different configurations ov VWs, including his half VW. Revmaster and Hummel 2300s fly lots of Sonex planes that are heavier than the Chipper. Www.hummelengines.com 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 you'll still have to pay GST on everything including the freight and insurance, based on value of the dollar on the date you kit left the US. the ATO also uses its own market valuation for the shipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 you'll still have to pay GST on everything including the freight and insurance, based on value of the dollar on the date you kit left the US. the ATO also uses its own market valuation for the shipment. That's correct - and the big catch, is - ALL costs incurred, in acquiring the aircraft or kit within the U.S.A, are also included in the GST assessment.Now, if you think you can save money by taking a holiday to the U.S., hiring a trailer and moving the crate to the port yourself - the ATO will still assess your U.S. internal shipping movement cost, based on your fuel costs, vehicle hire, and trailer hire charges. They simply want to know how it moved from the factory to the port, and want to allocate a charge cost to that movement. So if it costs another $500 or $1000 to freight the aircraft kit in its crate from Wichita to the coastal port you're using, that's included in the GST assessment, as well. In fact, you must supply every single invoice for costs associated with the purchase, for the valuation assessment - and you must declare that the list of purchase costs is complete. The bottom line, importation of something like an aircraft kit is best handled by a freight forwarding and Customs agent - because their charges are largely reasonable, and they know all the convoluted processes and steps involved in importation. Of course, once your kit arrives, it must be sent to a secure bonded warehouse (at more cost) while it is examined and assessed. The cost of transport from the port, to the bonded warehouse, is another added cost. Then there's quarantine/Border Protection inspection fees, Customs administration fee, Terminal security fee, Terminal handling fee, Sea Cargo Automation fee, Port Service charge, and a raft of other minor charges, where everyone who just touches, or just looks at your shipment, has to get their cut. Of course, you're also paying GST on all these charges and fees, too. It all adds up - and all these initially-hidden fees and charges can easily add another $1500-$2000 to your initial kit purchase outlay - before GST is assessed. I imported a large used industrial transmission (450kgs) from Myrtle Beach, South Carolina a while ago - and while the transmission only cost $2200 in actual purchase costs, by the time it landed at my shop, the total came to $3417. I knew the additional charges were going to add up, but even at that, I was still surprised at the total bill when tallied up. There's also horrendous charges involved if you muck around after your shipment arrives. You get a few days to pick it up, or demurrage, detention, or storage charges commence, and they can easily be $250 a day or more. Oh - and you don't want to be in a hurry, and want Customs or Border Protection to work over the weekend to release your shipment, either. A couple of years ago, just the initial callout fee for Customs/Border Protection, for weekend inspections, was $1500 - and I have little doubt that fee has now been increased. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Yes, I counted 16 separate charges with a sea import (LCL). Unfortunately the importation costs were higher than my low cost but bulky product. If you want it, you have to pay, and there's plenty "parasites" with their finger in the pie......"compulsory coruption" I call it. I'm just guessing here, but there must be a point where a full container (FCL) becomes more economical even without it being full... I probably had 20%( if that) of a 20 footer but recon I payed close to 30 to 40% FCL costs. My advice for a kit is to get a full container and cram in as much other stuff as you can or even 2 or 3 kits if possible. The greater value in the container, the lower the extra costs will be by percentage. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methusala Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 All of these additional costs on imports make the US/Australian FTA look pretty p**s weak. Makes a Jabiru look very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Onetrack is correct...leave it to the experts just get some quotes first from the importers here. Some are quite a bit more expensive on their charges that they have and I am sure they add to some of the outrageuos port charges...you even get charged for "robot" fees. I used to do all my own entries for the CNC stuff and model jets until customs were making it harder and harder so now all my importing is just done with a freight agent. I have 2 that I use and they are very good. One of them is the same mob that brings in the savannah kits for the agent Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 You just get it in and pay the costs and the GST and cop it sweet it makes the stress levels much easier to deal with You should try to get a ballastic parachute in...thats a whole new world of hurt..even the freight agents with lots of experience were frustrated. Mine arrived all ok but there was lots of drama..you get a quote and pay the money and its all set to go and the freight company NOT the freight importer here hears that the freight company then bails on it and you then have to try to get the airfreight via another source then it has to come in to someone that have the special licence for dangerous good blah blah..and it goes on ...eventually it came in but it was the biggest mission I have ever had to do with any import Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 All of these additional costs on imports make the US/Australian FTA look pretty p**s weak. Makes a Jabiru look very nice. I wouldn't be so sure on that. Even with all the additional shipping and handling fees, a Belite Chipper still comes out a lot cheaper than a Jabiru - and you also have the fun of putting it all together!I only mentioned all the import costs and extras, so that anyone contemplating doing their own purchase deal with Belite, and arranging their own shipping, knows what they are going to be up against. Downunder has the best suggestion, multiple purchases in the one sea container. You still have to pay GST, no matter whether its a Jabby or a Belite. If you can claim the GST back under business use for the aircraft, all well and good. But most recreational users can't do that, they just have to wear the GST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bexrbetter Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 now all my importing is just done with a freight agent. Correct, good ones are worth their weight, and good ones are cheap too, but you need to shop around. Containers are the way to go, the whole world is set up for them. Best service I have ever had, a Can-Do mob with well detailed and valid charges, were from here .. Shiprite International Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now