old man emu Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 You don't see kids racing billycarts much these days. I did when I was a kid. Started off with light weight ones made from fence palings and pram wheels, then as I got older and more skilled in scrounging stuff, I made them out of 3x2 timber and gearbox bearings. They were lots of fun, but they had an adverse effect on my learning to fly. You see, with a billycart, if you want to go right, you push forward on the left hand side of the front axle cross-bar. Conversely, to go left, you push forward on the right hand side. After years of doing this, when it came to steering an airplane with the rudder, I was arz about. Not a big problem in cruise, but confusing during landings, especially cross-winds. Did you suffer from the same problem? OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I've done a lot of tailwheel instruction and could often pick people who rode billycarts for the reasons you mentioned. My dad taught me to fly and I had a billycart as a kid, I couldn't understand why we built it with a crossbar to rest your feet on and steered using rope. I now understand why! Although trikes work in the same sense as a billycart, that creates some fun situations when converting those pilots onto 3 axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Yes! I thought aircraft would be the same (as carts) but it obviously turned out not to be the case. I was a late starter in aircraft and hadn't rolled down any hills for a decade or so, so adapted easily..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff13 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 We never had hills to roll down. So our Billy Carts had shafts and were towed by a Billy Goat. We just held a green branch out in front of him. Move the branch left and he would go left etc. A bit like left stick right stick really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy1 Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 We never had a billy cart. Had to slide along on our b$ms. Steered by weight shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj_richo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Ha ha.. MrMcarthy.. at least we used a piece of cardboard, or if you were really lucky a piece of scrounged Masonite Re the billy cart, last year I was reminiscing about the fun I had with mine and how it steered etc. compared to an aircraft. The next day I was due to restart some training to get my certificate current. When I finally got in the plane and started the takeoff roll, guess what.. my brain kicked in to billy cart mode and it was a few zig zags down the runway before I realised what I was doing. The power of visualisation and muscle memory!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I thought billy carts had died out, but when my grandies and their 5-year old cousin visited here I realised it's in our genes...or a morphic field. They spied our old folded-down laundry trolley and were soon using it to zoom down our steep gully. No steering, but give them time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 19, 2015 Author Share Posted May 19, 2015 Well I'll be blowed! I didn't think that my comment, made half in fun, would ring true with so many people. I hope that it gives food for thought to flying instructors as they grapple with the a student's problem of crossed feet. We never had a billy cart. Had to slide along on our b$ms. Steered by weight shift. Oh to be so lucky. I lived at the bottom of mine shaft. Had t'push pit cart t'top o shaft on hand and knee then pull forelock to mine owner to be allowed to fall down shaft steerin' cart with smock like a parachute and usin' our feet on cart wheels for brakes. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloper Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Goodaye all Yes l suffer from Billy Cart syndrome, l have to really concentrate on using the rudder when flying. Also have the scares on he knees to prove it. regards Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I started on a Chipmunk and had years of billycart experience. Very unhelpfull. The aeroplane is a bit anti- intuitive unless you are used to steering on differential brakes. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I remember playing on a billy cart as a kid, but I found the right foot was subconsciously acting as a brake and accelerator/brake when on the ground. Billy carts and bicycles seem to be a thing of the past now, i live next to a high school with 800 students and less than 10 ride to school these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roundsounds Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Billy carts and push / dirt bikes are great things, they teach kids there may be consequences going too fast into a corner or not watching where you're going - and sometimes it hurts. Unlike the simulated versions kids play now, just hit reset and go again. Can't do that in your fully sick Subaru after you plow into another car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunder Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I had lots of billy carts as a youngster but gave them up when I became a teenager HOWEVER guess what, my mate and I used to ride our push bikes no hands and steered with our feet on the handle bars.(they were straight horizontal ones). Needless to say I still ride a bike occasionally, fall off it regularly, and zig zag down the runway frequently. . Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenaviator Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I've thought about making my kids a tail dragger style billy cart with 'rudder pedals' that work the same as an aircraft. It never came to fruition but still reckon it would have been a lot of fun and the benefit would be training reflexes to work the right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Individual differential brakes are the same. You can separate them on a tractor but one side pedal only. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planesmaker Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I have built a tail wheel builycart with 'rudder pedals'. A beast to ride. Takes the kids a while to get the hang of it. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tarran Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Hi OME, I'll add my name to the list. In early ab initio training I had to think about the rudder controls as I was getting it arz about as you put it. Explained the problem to my instructor but the sympathetic sod just chuckled and said "you'd better get that sorted out". Tendency disappeared quickly but it was a bit disconcerting early on particularly when practising cross wind landings. I wonder if I drove a billycart now (unlikely I know) whether I would have the reverse problem? Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Keep away from the billycart forever. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tarran Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Good idea Nev. I'd probably prang it. The older I get the more risk averse I become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Chris until a few years ago I could adapt well to differences. Now I'm having to think a bit more carefully. I had the billycart problem when I started and I think a remnant of it always remains. I haven't groundlooped yet. (probably shouldn't say that). Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tarran Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Hi Nev. No chance of me groundlooping as I don't have a tailwheel endorsement (perhaps I shouldn't tempt fate either) but I have done some wandering in the taxi and stamped on the wrong pedal to correct when I haven't been consciously thinking about what I am doing . The solution to the billycart issue was to program myself to "tread on the ball" when flying (and you have to tread on it hard in the Sierra) and this seemed to cement the correct orientation in. I was over 50 when I started training and even in the 5 years since I have noticed a decline in my ability to physically do what in the past I wouldn't give a second thought to. Just seems to be a gradual decline in the mind/body interface. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDQDI Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Chris never say there is 'no chance of ground looping a nose wheel' it's been done before and no doubt may happen again:yes:. I can't say I was affected by billy cart syndrome, but I guess growing up with tractors and using differential brakes since a youngster probably set me up well for plane steering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tarran Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Chris never say there is 'no chance of ground looping a nose wheel' it's been done before and no doubt may happen again:yes:. I can't say I was affected by billy cart syndrome, but I guess growing up with tractors and using differential brakes since a youngster probably set me up well for plane steering. Yes I know I'm probably tempting fate. Some time ago, straight after qualifying, I tried to hire a Sportstar. Obviously I did a flight test with the owner but it didn't go very well. The flight characteristics were quite different to the Tecnam I'd trained in and it took me a while to adjust. One of the key ones was the toe brakes (the Tecnam has the normal central lever). I was OK on the ground and taxiing but using the rudder on landing was a pain as I kept jabbing the brakes as I steered which led to the Sportstar hopping all over the place. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 What we learn easily as youngsters is damned hard to unlearn when we grow up: http://viewpure.com/MFzDaBzBlL0?ref=bkmk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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