Getting PPR and following instruction - Runway choice

[RossK]

Got a question.

On our way home on the weekend, we were going to drop in to another airfield, so I rang the operator to get PPR and was told they were using runway XX (sealed). OK no problem I say.

When we get there, I overfly 500ft above the circuit and can see both windsocks are showing a wind direction 100deg off runway XX at about 10-15 knots - so crosswind with tailwind component 😬

There was no other AC in the circuit. They have another strip (grass) that would have given a 40 degree crosswind.

There wasn't any X on the grass strip, but wasn't sure if it was usable as the operator said to use the sealed strip XX

So, what should I do? follow the instructions of the operator and use runway XX or use the grass strip that is more into wind.

I did neither and chose not to land and went elsewhere.

Thoughts?

[pmccarthy]

I reckon you could land either direction on the sealed runway. I would not risk the grass without further information.

[skippydiesel]

As PIC it is your decision, on which runway to land (not ATC or airfield operator/owner). However you might need a very good reason for ignoring their advice/instruction, especially if your decisions results in an incident.

[KRviator]

If it is a PVT strip, do what the owner said. For all you know they've got fences or something on the grass, put out their X's and the cows have trampled them into the ground. There could be a myriad of reasons you've been told to use the sealed strip, and you won't be likely to get PPR a second time if you landed on the grass after being told the sealed strip.

 

Just remember CASR 91.410, that makes crashing illegal. If you land on the grass, even if you greased it on, and you somehow crash, you're a criminal as it wasn't suitable.

Quote

91.410 Use of aerodromes

 

(1) The operator and the pilot in command of an aircraft for a flight each contravene this subregulation if:

(a) the aircraft takes off from, or lands at, a place; and

(b) the place does not meet the requirement in subregulation (2).

 

Note: This regulation does not apply to the operation of an aircraft if regulation 121.205 applies to the operation: see regulation 91.035.

 

(2) The requirement is that:

(a) the place is one of the following:

(i) a certified aerodrome;

(ii) a registered aerodrome;

(iii) an aerodrome for which an arrangement under section 20 of the Act is in force;

(iv) a place that is suitable for the landing and taking off of aircraft; and (b) the aircraft can land at, or take off from, the place safely having regard to all the circumstances of the proposed landing or take off (including the prevailing weather conditions).

 

[440032]

Except that RAAus aircraft (such as Ross' Sportstar pictured) operating to CAO 95.55 are exempt from compliance with CASR, says CASR 200.14.

91.410 does not apply. Crashing would be perfectly legal.

Ross, you made a good call. You chose to not blindly follow the advice given because it was a bad idea for you - when you got there.

Maybe you could have used the grass perfectly fine, but you didn't 100% know that at the time you were there, and your airpersonship voice told you "NUP, not doing it, no big deal, I'll just go home." Good call. Maybe over cautious, but so what?

It all depends on what was asked or said on the phone:

"we are using runway 37"  (as in now, while I'm telling you. But later, who knows!)

or

"you must use runway 37 only because of (whatever)"

Perhaps ask a few more questions on similar PPR calls. Cover all bases. "Is the grass runway usable too?"

 

[facthunter]

You did the right thing. Remove any doubt when you are able. In Australia, ATC can close an aerodrome and not allow an approach. In most other countries that's not the case. It will often be that cloud or vis is below minimum.  You can elect to NOT use a current runway IF you decide it's not the safest option. Your job as PIC is to operate in the safest way possible. by LAW.. You can decline a clearance if you regard it as unsafe. Be prepared to justify your actions though but don't do something just because you feel pressured. It's not a defence at an inquiry if things go wrong. Nev

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, RossK said:

Got a question.

On our way home on the weekend, we were going to drop in to another airfield, so I rang the operator to get PPR and was told they were using runway XX (sealed). OK no problem I say.

When we get there, I overfly 500ft above the circuit and can see both windsocks are showing a wind direction 100deg off runway XX at about 10-15 knots - so crosswind with tailwind component 😬

There was no other AC in the circuit. They have another strip (grass) that would have given a 40 degree crosswind.

There wasn't any X on the grass strip, but wasn't sure if it was usable as the operator said to use the sealed strip XX

So, what should I do? follow the instructions of the operator and use runway XX or use the grass strip that is more into wind.

I did neither and chose not to land and went elsewhere.

Thoughts?

Choose not to land was a reasonable decision. Some people don’t realise they have a duty of care at a field, others don’t care and the majority would have backed up the advice you were given and probably changed the advice. 

[Roundsounds]

34 minutes ago, 440032 said:

Except that RAAus aircraft (such as Ross' Sportstar pictured) operating to CAO 95.55 are exempt from compliance with CASR, says CASR 200.14.

91.410 does not apply. Crashing would be perfectly legal.

Ross, you made a good call. You chose to not blindly follow the advice given because it was a bad idea for you - when you got there.

Maybe you could have used the grass perfectly fine, but you didn't 100% know that at the time you were there, and your airpersonship voice told you "NUP, not doing it, no big deal, I'll just go home." Good call. Maybe over cautious, but so what?

It all depends on what was asked or said on the phone:

"we are using runway 37"  (as in now, while I'm telling you. But later, who knows!)

or

"you must use runway 37 only because of (whatever)"

Perhaps ask a few more questions on similar PPR calls. Cover all bases. "Is the grass runway usable too?"

 

RAAus are only exempt of a few CASA reg’s, not all of them!

[KRviator]

No, @440032 is right. I didn't think he was and went looking.  CAO95.55 fliers are exempt from pretty much ALL the CASR's and only a few of the CAR's.

 

Contrary to popular belief, I like being wrong - I'll learn something that way!

[RossK]

Thanks for the replies guys.  It is a private strip and would have been my first time there.  I didn't need to stop, but wanted to have look as we were nearby. 

My take away is I just need to ask more about strip conditions when I'm calling for PPR, not just asking if I can land.

 

[poteroo]

12 hours ago, RossK said:

My take away is I just need to ask more about strip conditions when I'm calling for PPR, not just asking if I can land

 

Correct.  Remember too, that the owner of the strip may not be a pilot themself - so take care with this. Focus on approach obstacles, windsock location, surface condition, fences etc, ie, the physical risks. The operation al considerations, eg, crosswinds, you have to assess on-the-spot.

[440032]

Yep, I don't make this stuff up, I just report it. That's why I like to quote some specifics so that others can check and maybe tell me if I'm wrong, otherwise I'm JAFO on recflying.

 

(JAFO - go watch Blue Thunder, then report back.)

 

[pmccarthy]

Just Another F....... Oracle?

[440032]

close, but no banana.