Wings as radiators

[Ian]

Hi All,

 

Engines generate a lot of waste heat and was wondering if anyone was aware of using the areas of the wing that tend to ice up to remove this heat rather than a stand alone radiator. I think that one of the supermarine planes used this approach. The Mosquito used wing radiators however they were actual cavities.

Would this stop icing and would it produce thrust/additional lift?

 

 

[facthunter]

The principle is there but arranging it to work in the varying circumstances is impractical. Plumbing fans etc. Surface radiators need airflow and  generally get too hot if kept on the ground very long. Merlins can't be on the ground long with their radiator set up in hot climates.. Radials open the cowl gills to full open on the ground. Airframe icing on commercial jets is by bleed air from the engines and uses a lot of power and fuel. Some engines cooling design has been claimed to produce some thrust. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, Ian said:

Engines generate a lot of waste heat and was wondering if anyone was aware of using the areas of the wing that tend to ice up to remove this heat rather than a stand alone radiator. I think that one of the supermarine planes used this approach. 

I believe the Supermarine seaplane racers used some form of total loss liquid cooling system plumbed into the wings skins. Sufficient for the short full-power runs they needed to set records.

Using that waste heat to combat icing sounds like a great idea.

 

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Some engines cooling design has been claimed to produce some thrust. 

A design engineer once told me that when power was shut off on the P-51 Mustang, it’s clever radiator provided measurable thrust. It’s said that Will Messschmitt couldn’t wait to get his hands on one to figure out why it had such long range.

[facthunter]

The more powerful engines gave it  the ability to operate at high altitudes and that gave the "later" ones the range. They  could easily range to Berlin in the later parts of the war.

[Flightrite]

complexity, weight and cost are the driving factors. Anti/de-ice is mainly for the high end machines where bleed air and or EP work best.

in 42 years of driving planes I’ve only ever seen/had nasty ice enuf to make an operational change

[skippydiesel]

I'm with Flightrite - sounds like a workable idea - built in multi piping inside the leading edge but weight, complexity (many options for failure) might not "get it off the ground"

[kasper]

Wing radiators/surface radiators were used on the Supermarine S5 with the lion engine from napier

 

From memory

Corrugated upper surface radiators for the engine coolant were built onto the wooden wing

Corrugated surface radiators for the oil were on the rear fuselage sides aft of the cockpit

Fuel tankage was in one of the floats - and that float was offset from the centreline by a different distance than the non-fuel filled float

 

The S6/6B used Rolls Royce R engines (the basis for the merlin) and added more surface radiators for engine cooling on the floats as well as the wings ... also think they extended the oil radiators on the sides forward of the cockpit

 

A quick google will probably prove my memory faulty but that wat I 'member

[facthunter]

Icing is more of a problem for unpressurised planes. Once you get high up the clouds (Cirrus) are made of small ice crystals. It's quite DRY up there (Unless you go through a large Cb or the Inter Tropic Convergence Zone).  Most light  aircraft don't have de icing systems that work effectively. JUST AVOID IT.  Nev

Edited December 2, 2021 by facthunter

[onetrack]

I often wondered if exhaust heat could be used for de-icing - but lo and behold, the Americans thought of, and considered that, as well - in 1940.

 

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20090014183

[Old Koreelah]

To their credit, the Yanks published the results of much aeronautical experiment during that golden era.

I used a 1940s NACA report on exhaust augmentors to build mine and they worked as the research indicated.

As with motorcycles, its amazing how many outlandish ideas were tried and discarded only to be adopted decades later when better manufacturing technology and materials made them viable.

[facthunter]

There's an incredible amount of corrosion associated with exhaust gases getting into contact with  airframe metals. Exhaust augmentation was used to pull cooling air through engine cowls, usually resulting in increased noise levels like on a Caribou with P&W R-2000 engines. You could hear them 50 Kms away. The Twin Comanche had that feature also and the noise absorbing panels under the wings deteriorate badly from exhaust Products contact..If you deice by wing heat you must do it properly or you can make things worse.. .Nev

[Ian]

On 02/12/2021 at 1:03 PM, facthunter said:

The more powerful engines gave it  the ability to operate at high altitudes and that gave the "later" ones the range. They  could easily range to Berlin in the later parts of the war.

My understanding that range and altitude weren't related if the engine can be throttled efficiency (which piston engines can and turbine can't) Greatest efficiency occurs at a particular angle of attack and that determines greatest range. Jets fly at altitudes which allow the engines to  function efficiently. The first paragraph explains that an understand of these principles isn't included in the US syllabus or to my limited understanding the Australian one.

Piston Airplane Cruise Performance.pdf