Weight & Balance

[skippydiesel]

35 minutes ago, Yenn said:

What use is repeatability if the repeat is incorrect each time.

For scales to be usable they need to be correct. If they are incorrect by for example 15% they should I think still give a correct C of G, but the weight will be incorrect.

If they are incorrect by different percentages at the ends of the scale, they will be incorrect on C of G as well as weight. In both cases not acceptable for safe flying.

Repeatability means that when you set the scale, using a known weight, you then have an accurate start point.

If the scale has an adjustable readout (& all that I have ever seen do) then you can set the scale accordingly - it will be correct at the test weight.

Ideally your test weight will be in the same range, as the weight you want to measure (outside the lab this is rarely practical). I

The scales should  be tested before & after measuring the unknown (aircraft wheel) weight to check that it is still giving the same reading (repeatability). 

 

Technology is such that many digital measuring devises remain "accurate" over extended periods however it would be a false assumption that they are always correct. EG Your local fuel station is subject to routine testing of their fuel metering devises,to ensure that you the customer is not being "shorted". The same goes for any public weigh bridge. ETC ETC ie the equipment is being tested for repeatability.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

FYI - Aircraft Weighing Australia 

 

Contact: 0448448316, Ceri (Kerri) Bartlett

 

aircraftweighingaustralia.com.au

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Yenn said:

What use is repeatability if the repeat is incorrect each time.

For scales to be usable they need to be correct. If they are incorrect by for example 15% they should I think still give a correct C of G, but the weight will be incorrect.

If they are incorrect by different percentages at the ends of the scale, they will be incorrect on C of G as well as weight. In both cases not acceptable for safe flying.

Each scale is slightly different to the others. Where you have this you can buy another set hoping it matches the two not the one etc, but for flying better to go for the high quality approved scales.

[Blueadventures]

20 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

FYI - Aircraft Weighing Australia 

 

Contact: 0448448316, Ceri (Kerri) Bartlett

 

aircraftweighingaustralia.com.au

Nice; what is the cost excluding travel?

[skippydiesel]

57 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Nice; what is the cost excluding travel?

Let you know when she responds to my email

[Blueadventures]

On 18/10/2022 at 8:04 PM, skippydiesel said:

From RAA today - If I understood correctly;

 

RAA L2's have not had automatic W&B testing privileges since 2016.

RAA has a submission in with CASA, right now, to restart W&B testing (if you have done the course)

The submission is a step by step methodology for anyone whishing to do a W&B the CASA/RAA approved way - I don't quite understand if this allows an owner to actually do a pre first flight W&B (doubt it)

Proper scales are required (not your bathroom jobs).

 

I suspect that W&B for a first flight will still have to be signed of by an authorised (?) person

Hi Skip Was speaking the Jarrod today on another matter re details of E-props on my Nynja (change from DUC to E-Props allm good they processed info and got new registration with E-Props on it within the hour.  Emailed thanks to them) ; back to topic.  Yes, application with CASA to have all RAA trained W&B persons valid and they are hoping for result back within the next week or so (however no surprise if longer).  The new W&B procedure will be a 21 page document and should be advised to members next month.  (Sounds good and should answer any questions about requirements and how to do.)

Cheers Mike

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Blueadventures said:

Hi Skip Was speaking the Jarrod today on another matter re details of E-props on my Nynja (change from DUC to E-Props allm good they processed info and got new registration with E-Props on it within the hour.  Emailed thanks to them) ; back to topic.  Yes, application with CASA to have all RAA trained W&B persons valid and they are hoping for result back within the next week or so (however no surprise if longer).  The new W&B procedure will be a 21 page document and should be advised to members next month.  (Sounds good and should answer any questions about requirements and how to do.)

Cheers Mike

Thanks Blue - Yes all true but as most would advise - don't bank on it happening within 2 weeks .

 

In the event of my favorited RAA service provider not getting his ticket to weigh back within a reasonable period (2-3 weeks) I have already started to research potential CASA approved W&B service providers that may be willing to come to Camden, NSW, airfield. This is extraordinarily hard to do because few advertise and there are no contact lists from CASA.

 

It woulds be much appreciated if any Forum member would pass on the name, phone number, email address or web page for a W&B  service provider to the Sydney Basin & environs 

[Blueadventures]

15 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Thanks Blue - Yes all true but as most would advise - don't bank on it happening within 2 weeks .

 

In the event of my favorited RAA service provider not getting his ticket to weigh back within a reasonable period (2-3 weeks) I have already started to research potential CASA approved W&B service providers that may be willing to come to Camden, NSW, airfield. This is extraordinarily hard to do because few advertise and there are no contact lists from CASA.

 

It woulds be much appreciated if any Forum member would pass on the name, phone number, email address or web page for a W&B  service provider to the Sydney Basin & environs 

Find an SAAA VH aircraft owner and they will be able to source contacts for their W&B people from their member services lists.  (Don't think you will get joy phoning them about getting an RAA aircraft weighed; unfortunately, I think we still light up as 'FOE' in the Friend or Foe ident).  Maybe a long shot a local gliding club will have a Form 2 person that does their weight and balance at the 10 yearly survey times. [May only have 2 load cells - glider only have two wheels:)]  I've been a long time out of glider maintenance but would expect their w&b persons are suitable.  Over to you.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Blueadventures

[440032]

SAAA doesn't actually have W&Bal people (who will come weigh your aircraft), but some of our members are personally a CASA appointed Weight Control Officer - WCO - nothing directly to do with SAAA.

Ceri (it's Welsh) - from Sydney area I think - she advertises in Aviation Trader, as do  a few others around OZ.

CASA will not release a list of all the WCO's that THEY appoint. There are more around than you might think, but finding them is difficult, they don't advertise, probably because it's something they do for their employer and it's not an activity they need to run around getting involved in for the general public. They might weigh an odd aircraft that is on their home airfield.

 

As an SAAA member, I don't know what the RAAus rules are about who can do what with weighing. But I know what SAAA members cannot do. SAAA members only weigh their own aircraft, not anyone else's. Many SAAA members are also RAAus members who fly both flavors aircraft.

I and many others try to help any RAAus members who might ask us something, and I find usually I have to just refer them back to their organisation RAAus because their question is outside our scope. We get calls from people who confuse SAAA with RAAus (or SAFA - ex HGFA) . Quite common, usually from people who have bought some plane or are considering buying some plane. We just point them in the right direction for their query and they are happy for the help.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Currently RA-Aus operates under an exemption from CAO 100.7 which is a detailed Weight & Balance Order..

 

Section 10 of the Technical manual V 4.1 says:-

 

1.1 The requirements of CAO 100.7 apply to all RAAus registered aircraft.

 

Subsection 1(c) of CAO 100.7 will apply to RAAus registered aircraft when procedures are accepted or approved by CASA for the aircraft.

 

Subsection 1(c) or the order states

 This Order does not apply to the following:

(a)   a balloon;

(b)   an airship;

(c)   an aircraft that:

             (i)  is registered by a sport aviation body; and

            (ii)  has been weighed in accordance with the sport aviation body’s procedures, as the procedures have been accepted or approved by CASA at the time the aircraft is weighed.

 

So it would appear that there is a review going on because there is virtually nothing in the Technical manual regarding Weight & Balance, just 3 paragraphs (less than 1/2 a page) and a reference to Form 6 which is the RA-Aus weight & balance form & that requires a signature from the owner that W&B has been done & a report is attached either from the owner, a CASA W&B Authority or an L2. Clearly there have been issues previously with poor data or procedures/processes to prompt this review. This does not surprise me based on the quality of some Lames & L2s.

[Blueadventures]

Agree KG &44.  I have L2 and WB.   Casa issue an authority for suitably qualified persons at $130/ hour to appraise (brief overview).

 

RAA are in the process of have their persons approved back on line.  (They will advise all members soon of the procedure it will most likely include a course etc, and maybe current holders just get re approved or do a refresher.)   

 

I planned to visit a friend who is a SAAA member and has built 2 aircraft and another underway (all scratch built)  I borrow certified load cells off him when doing my w&b.  I'll ask him about the SAAA rules.

 

 

[Yenn]

Why would you consider the SAAA members to be the foe?

We are also members of RAAUs is many cases and usually consider anyone who flies to be a friend.

RAAus does seem to consider SAAA to be the foe, notice that they never give out informatiion of SAAA events in their RAAus magazine or on their web site.

[facthunter]

RAAus didn't win any friends when it unilaterally declared itself to be the NEW GA. That was a bit of bad PR. Nev

[Blueadventures]

6 minutes ago, facthunter said:

RAAus didn't win any friends when it unilaterally declared itself to be the NEW GA. That was a bit of bad PR. Nev

Plus the earlier comment not supporting the medical requirement change.

[facthunter]

Looks arrogant and thinking they are better than they are. To run this show you have to understand a lot about planes and the people who fly them. The organisation WORKS for the members NOT for the administration.  Nev

[Ian]

If you have the gift of the gab, truck weighing stations have set of weights calibrated against the National Measurements Institute standard weights.  That way you could calibrate your standard bathroom scales.

[440032]

SAAA doesn't have rules about weighing aircraft, BlueA, CASA does. We just follow them. CAO 100.7.

Myth bust 1: SAAA is not a self administering organisation that runs VH Experimental - CASA runs Experimental, we follow CASA regs, and we have a few approvals for a few things for our members. Really, same as RAAus has things for their members. And other orgs for their members.

[Old Koreelah]

Glad I’m not just starting my build...

[Blueadventures]

3 minutes ago, 440032 said:

SAAA doesn't have rules about weighing aircraft, BlueA, CASA does. We just follow them. CAO 100.7.

Myth bust 1: SAAA is not a self administering organisation that runs VH Experimental - CASA runs Experimental, we follow CASA regs, and we have a few approvals for a few things for our members. Really, same as RAAus has things for their members. And other orgs for their members.

The intent of my comments was for Skip to contact and ask an SAAA member regarding his endeavour to source a W&B person. I borrow the load weights I use from two SAAA people as the share the ownership of a set of 3 calibrated load cells.  We work as a group sharing info and I have done w&b in the past.  Such contact was to gain contact details to a SAAA member and discuss.  If he lived up here I would have introduced him to them.  Thanks for you info as will be good for all and all going well RAA will be up and running again regarding w&b.

[skippydiesel]

Wow! I seem to have stirred up a "hornets nest" - So far I have contacted 3 organisations offering W&B service - yet to have a response. I plan to phone around the local aircraft work shops, as it has been suggested to me that many LAIMS have their W&B approval but don't offer their services outside their employers business (one may be persuaded).

[facthunter]

Better if you get their NAME right. (Make the "N"  a "D".  They had to study for their qualifications)  Nev

[Yenn]

You could contact an SAAA member who has built his own pane, he would probably have done the maintenance course and have the ability to do W & B. I did it years ago but they have since brought in requirements to re do the course every so long and I haven't bothered.

[Blueadventures]

2 hours ago, Yenn said:

You could contact an SAAA member who has built his own pane, he would probably have done the maintenance course and have the ability to do W & B. I did it years ago but they have since brought in requirements to re do the course every so long and I haven't bothered.

Yes Yenn.  Thats what Skippy is chasing a SAAA member that can look up and pass on a contact or two.  Like RAA list name, location, and contact for L2,3 and 4's.  Are you still a member of SAAA?  If so, look up a contact and pm Skippy.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Blueadventures

[skippydiesel]

Thanks Blue ( & Yenn in anticipation)

[Yenn]

Not living in NSW, where I suppose Skippy lives. I think The Oaks is near Penrith. I think the person to contact at SAAA would be Ken Garland who is a technical councillor, which means he overlooks builders in his area. He would no doubt be able to do a W&B or know someone who would. His email is ken.garland@gmailcom