Spin

Yep another vote for the transponder if you're going to venture beyond the back paddock. I had the slightly unnerving experience of hearing Brisbane giving my position as unidentified traffic to "Buckshot xx", an F-111 who blasted by, down in the weeds a few minutes later.

What the Gnu said, I seem to recall it is one of those instances where our Ops Manual is more specific than the general regs. Maybe someone who is studying for their licence can quote chapter and verse?

My only query relates to the time on the engine - can the school use an aircraft that has an "on condition" engine? Provided that is answered in the positive, you need only have a plan in place for the fairly significant cost of an overhaul or replacement, whenever that comes around.

That looks really impressive, well done guys. I think I just found a reason to buy an ipad.

Well done RD, been a good story to follow and I look forward to many more episodes as you put her to use.

I don't really see why anyone would need to get their feathers all puffed up about the discussion and where it has ended up - the can of worms was opened, let them crawl where they may. What does concern me is we keep quoting horrendous examples of obvious illegal behaviour or poor airmanship and then equating it to the current situation. If I might quote from post #19 " In short, the other pilot's radio calls were unprofessional and, by extension, unsafe " A very different scenario from our looping C172 or aerobatting Drifter.

I'll say upfront that I don't know DS, other than through this forum, however your comment needs some context Turboplanner. I too was once a newly qualified lawyer and can relate to an overdeveloped sense of respect:beg: for the letter of the law:contract:, something that is almost a defining characteristic of the species. A sharp lesson, often at the hands of a grizzled and worldly wise police person is often required to bring some perspective to the view. Now whilst this isn't a debate about DS and her attributes, I don't think we can simply accept her definition of "poor airmanship" "unprofessional communication", therefore "unsafe" at face value because of her professional qualification. Personally, my toes curl at the recollection of some of my pronouncements at a similar stage of life. I'm sorry but from what we have learnt so far, this one just doesn't fly. Back to the example of the looping C172 - as with others here, that is a fairly extreme example and a far cry from what I understand the complaint to be about. I too hire aircraft at the moment and would hope that anyone who overstresses one that I may hire, will be reported.

Obviously we are flying blind here because DS hasn't given us chapter and verse of her concerns, however reading from the beginning it seems she is objecting to a pilot's radio procedure, which she believed was unprofessional - and by extension unsafe(?). I have to say that if I'm reading this right, a formal report to CASA and RA-Aus is over the top. Sue's examples of actual dangerous behaviour are of a completely different magnitude to what I perceive DS to be complaining about and the same considerations do not apply. If it weren't possible to have a quiet word with the pilot, or the CFI or the club safety officer, if one exists, then the suggested call to Mick Poole would be the way to go i.m.o.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA8gcQQZbl0

Hot off the press.....

I'd probably put it out here first David, at least the context of the discussion has been established. This is one of those topics that has people shooting from the hip and flaming people on the basis of conventional wisdom - ie. go into cloud and you're gonna die! I look forward to reading your contribution. Good topic Motz, unfortunately the "rules" of aviation all to often represent what instructors teach students to keep them from killing themselves in the first few hours. Eg max 45 deg turn either side if EFATO, 178 seconds to die, etc when in fact these are good general advice to live by, rather than something akin to Newton's laws of motion. I was a reluctant convert with a relatively new PPL and a ready collection of "rules" to apply to aviation, when an instructor friend challenged me to start thinking instead of just spouting. I flew quite a few night box runs with him and was told to "fly the %$#@ plane" when I wanted to hand over one moonlit night at the sight of an approaching cloud bank. Much to my surprise the aircraft continued flying as it had before and I was able to climb to our assigned level, level off, retrim and keep right on trucking, all in zero viz. We had many discussions about the what ifs and how to's on those late flights and whilst I would never equate my simple flight profile to instrument flight, which is an exacting and often high pressure environment when combined with precision navigation etc, the experience did mean that I was much less likely to panic if very bad luck or poor decision making on my part, placed me in cloud. My instructor friend cited the case of a fairly experienced PPL with his own well equipped Bonanza, that splattered himself all over a rocky ridge, rather than climb into a mist layer that had boxed him in. As he pointed out the auto pilot could quite happily have taken him up to clear air even if he couldn't manage the task himself - once there he could either have flown clear or 'fessed up and sought help. My mate's correctly pointed out that Wiley Post, Lindbergh and others mostly had no formal training in instrument flight and had to learn as they went along. Quite a few didn't survive the process, but many did and often with less instrument help than we have.

Ozzie you're not likely to get any consensus here, photographers, even amateurs are worse than pilots when it comes to arguing their particular corner. Think Jabiru vs Rotax.... What I can say is I was in your position a year or two back and after asking around ended up with a basic Canon twin lense kit. The second lense, a 75 - 300 has the cogniscenti turning up their noses, but it cost all of $40 extra as part of the package and I've had a couple of photos, taken with it, published already. Yes, I would like a better lense and will probably get myself a 100-400mm with image stabiliser at the end of the year, but it will cost more than the entire camera package did and I plain couldn't justify the money starting out. The current crop of low end SLRs will take you a long way and IF you do end up outgrowing one (most people don't), you'll either sell it on or want to keep it as a second body anyway. I'll agree with David in saying that for the average bloke who wants good photos, a bridge camera is probably the way to go - I've a mate who is a pro and who carries one in his bag to use when things get hectic - no swopping lenses or switching from one camera to another. The only downside is what you see is what you get mostly, there is no way for it to grow with you if you intend taking the hobby further.

Geez, talk about piddling on a bloke's battery! Well done Bob, your course may not suit everyone, but nice to see something different on the RA fleet and a Vans aircraft that doesn't need to emulate an airliner to get airborne.

Good comments all Dave, as you have pointed out, these things all need someone or better still a team of people to make them happen, accompanied by a good dollop of goodwill. I cannot help but wonder what effect the bitchfest, stirred up right here, had on attendance and on people volunteering their time and effort? I was all set to drive down this year and would have put my hand up to marshall or whatever - as I have for many other events, but I was not prepared to spend 2 full days travelling to attend what promised to be an extended, extraordinary general meeting. I have done my time on committees, boards etc. and spend quite enough time settling disputes during the week, to want to participate in what I consider a disgraceful display.

No photos guys?

Well done mate, you would have had to do a few things to achieve a good outcome. Good to look back on and know you did it right.

Pete, I apply similar principles to nervous boat/yacht passengers; explain briefly what you are going to be doing and how it may make them feel, keep them involved, eg look out and above all keep it smooth and predictable. Even for youngsters looking for a thrill ride, remember that it is an alien environment and for some of them the fact that they have no control over their fate is something that takes a little time to get used to.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a98_1303334732 Twin Otter doing what it does best.

Congrats, much as I enjoy puttering around alone, having someone to share the experience with is pretty special, it's never the same trying to describe things to people on the ground afterwards. My son claims the rhs most of the time, but you'll find that people you never expected to have an interest, will come out of the woodwork if you wait long enough. A colleague that I didn't know very well admitted to an interest after hearing me enthusing about my weekend, in the kitchen at work. He claims to have enjoyed his flight no end and may well start lessons soon. Another one corrupted!

Ugh, do we really have to descend to the level of the schoolyard? Boeing fanboys..... really? Be aware that the accident investigation into the Mulhouse accident is one of the most hotly disputed around with quite a bit of evidence that the engines did not in fact respond when the throttles were pushed forward - a phenomenon experienced with this model previously but not conveyed to the Air France pilot body. As usual the truth probably lies somewhere between the versions, certainly the pilot was pushing the envelope esp with passengers aboard. Part of the problem with the investigation lies with France's legal system where the police siezed the evidence instead of specialised civil authorities (NTSB and the like) doing the investigation. They also have a punitive focus where deaths have occurred, so were more interested in finding someone to blame rather investigating potential technical explanations. Anyhow it isn't quite as open and shut as we have been led to understand.

Tx for the info Flying Ant, must say my understanding of the control logic was a little different,ie although the rudder is in direct law, under normal circumstances (multiple failures aside) the roll control is not and the aircraft will prevent you from cross controlling. Stirring aside, I have several friends who drive various models of Airbus and a recurring theme is the observation that they are hellish clever, but there is a slight unease with the fact that the aircraft does quite a bit off its own bat - fuel transfer etc. They have all become quite keen on them as familiarity has grown (ex 737 and 747 fleets) but another common observation is that there are times when you have to work around the system when things don't go exactly to plan and the "cleverness" is actually counterproductive. I did also hear a reported observation from the A380 incident that some things would in fact have been easier with a paper manual to consult rather than a computer which was ranking failures according to its own pre-programmed logic. The following video does however illustrate my misgivings:stirrer:

By the way, nice find Dazza, it was very interesting.

Here ya go, hope your faith isn't misplaced!

Interesting discussion, especially as I'm shifting some taped programs around and watching the Hudson incident at the same time. Very easy to sit behind a keyboard and pontificate, however I suspect that when your ass is on the line and you're having to process an almost unbelievable situation, it all looks a little different. There are plenty of examples of pilots who were not able to adapt fast enough and ended up killing themselves and passengers - I am more than happy to tip my cap to someone who performs above and beyond. I'm happy to fly either Boeing or Airbus, but have to say that I prefer the Boeing approach - Airbus reads a bit like, "never mind, we know best so just do it our way..." all very well until the unimaginable happens,..... yet again! Personally I'd like a pilot to have a chance to exercise some stick n rudder skills in extremis and when all else fails.

Yeah Ozzie, on the West Coast near the Military Academy at Saldanha. Had to laugh, sent these to a mate of mine whose old man flew for the SAAF, he immediately came back wanting to know when the photos were taken, his old man had quite a few hours on the plane where the number is visible and he had definite suspicions about the old boy's activities!