29 RA-Aus deaths in 29 months

[Ultralights]

if Human error is the biggest factor, then the issue is with the humans, not the system. dont let yourself get complacent, and dont believe it when everyone tells you, you have the best instructor because his lessons were easy.

 

A good instructor will make sure you are sweating and wont sugar coat your mistakes. and will make sure you fly your best, all the time, not just teach you to pass a flight test.

 

 

[Geoff13]

I agree when truckies F*** up others can die. This discussion is about killing ourselves not really about killing others.

 

But if society is not ready to "PAY" to stop truckies killing themselves and others, what makes anyone think it is ready to stop us rec pilots killing ourselves with little risk to others.

 

 

[Keith Page]

In the 29 months from January 2013 to May 2015 inclusive, the fatalities within the RA-Aus sector of sport and recreational aviation have reached the very disturbing total of 29 persons i.e. one death per month. The answer to the question — "Does it look like recreational aviators are now getting safer and that there is less chance of fatal accidents?" — is that they are most certainly not getting safer, despite the 2008 introduction of human factors training and the more recent managerial measures — and despite some recent board member statements. Assuredly, we are not improving; perhaps the adage 'The more things change, the more they stay the same' is appropriate?Read the June 4 update of the document 'Recent RA-Aus fatal accident history' at http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/safety/intro2.html

 

John Brandon

 

RA-Aus life member

Good Evening John,

I have just returned and reading your post.

 

What I have gleaned -- it is a very difficult road to drive, because when an organisation preaches, hammers and threatens/threats safety most of the time the reverse happens because fear sets in then the people get very apprehensive with their decision making.

 

We need to have a culture developed where people are happy and confident not have a set of rules which generating fear.

 

When we hear information from the board and management we are informed "All is great and rosy with fantastic times ahead". Not quite true.

 

Yes we must have a positive attitude however we must also get rid of this toxic "all is good view" because it is not normal for activities to be 100% correct every time, because we have stuff ups. (Normal)

 

We must embrace what is normal and expand on it not these clouded views.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[kaz3g]

It would be interesting to see what percentage of serious incidents occur in School/Hire aircraft as you would expect that the majority of these users would be low hour Pilots with less experience.

Generally the students and very low time pilots have a lower accident rate than those who have a couple of hundred hours under their belts. They are supervised, cautious and a little nervous and therefore tend to avoid trouble in the main.

 

As the hours build, so can the attitude without strong personal discipline...and that leads to trouble.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

But how do you police it without seriously hampering the few freedoms we have left? .......

The rules are there but people aren't complying with them. That's the problem.

 

The reality is that 98% of society doesn't give a damn whether we can continue to enjoy our "freedoms". All they care about is their rights to feel safe and do what they want to do...which isn't flying little aeroplanes.

 

In the last decade successive governments have legislated away many of the freedoms once guaranteed to us under Magna Carta. The current Government is contemplating legislation that will give a Minister the power to hold a person guilty of terrorism related activities and, on that basis, cancel his or her Australian citizenship. Only a court can make a finding of guilt in our democratic system and a person is to be regarded as innocent until so proven.

 

Each little step; each little reduction in those rights and freedoms for even the worst in society diminishes access to democracy and justice for all of us.

 

Kaz

 

 

[John Brandon]

those graphs are 3.5 years out of date.that being said, the RAA doubled in size from 2003 to 2015

The graphs are not out of date, they reflect the actual statistics for the 1985-2011 period. However the chart information is quite bare so rather than extending the preceding charts for the more recent years you might have noticed that I have provided descriptive text for each year, starting with 2007.

 

Actually RA-Aus doubled in size between January 2004 and January 2012 when total voting membership peaked at 10 008 and subsequently experienced a net reduction during 2012-2014. The RA-Aus aircraft register also peaked in early 2012 at 3414 and has reduced to around 3300 in early 2015.

 

When reading membership statistics published in the monthly journal readers should bear in mind that many (most?) board members have always been quite careless with the membership totals and tended to exaggerate the membership figures. One recently stated that we had 13 000 members when in fact the number of members with voting rights was less than 10 000. Others have used the count of the number of magazines distributed each month thus including members of the public who had taken out a magazine subscription plus persons on the free list. The count of members should be restricted to those who have voting rights under the constitution, which would even exclude 'life members'.

 

JB

 

 

[John Brandon]

I haven't seen any RA statistics, but the GA statistics indicate that the student phase is by far the safest.That may be because the student has training fresh in his mind, is generally adhering to regulations, is operating out of good airfields, doesn't have ratbag peer pressure, and has the oversight of instructors and the CFI to keep him on the straight and narrow.

Yes, it is interesting that since the beginning of 2011 two student pilot certificate holders have died in fatal accidents, but in both cases they were not PIC, they were accompanied by an instructor. It would be most interesting to read the accident investigators' conclusions. I don't recall any significant student pilot appearance in the statistics for the prior 2006-2010 period.

 

JB

 

 

[K-man]

If someone isn't flying well it doesn't take very long for it to show in a flight test. The A/BFR has become a lot more of a big deal than it used to be. Much more is just another extra cost you must cover. Before we go deciding what to do, there would need to be a lot more analysing of the data. One bus accident kills more than the total in the period under consideration. What is a BIG incident? The only BIG incident I could see happening is a mid air with a Jumbo. That's why I don't believe in a qualification for controlled airspace. Transit clearances yes . We could never cover the liability, and the country under CTA is not suitable often either. OUR liability is limited to the pilot and sometimes ONE other person. THAT is the essence of this matter. It's not exactly a people mover.

I feel this is not really a valid reason for not having a CTA endorsement available for RA. You can fly into any number of airports around Australia that have jet RPTs. Using your logic we shouldn't be flying into those places at all. At least in CTA you have controllers helping you maintain separation. At present I have obtained my RPL and am doing the CTA endorsement. Having flown around Aus a number of times it is inconvenient to say the least when places like Alice Springs and Broome are off limits, not to mention almost the entire east coast if you want to fly coastal.Now, what is crazy, I have to do my RPL in a GA aircraft and I have to do my endorsement in a GA aircraft. Once I have the endorsement I will be flying my RA aircraft. Every two years I'll have to go out and fly an unfamiliar aircraft into controlled airspace to maintain my permissions. Thank goodness I will have an instructor with me for those flights as the pressures of airspace and unfamiliar aircraft are a recipe for disaster. More than two thirds of RA aircraft are now 3 axis and many of those are high performance into the bargain. I feel RA should be proactive in making sure that RA pilots are as safe as any other pilot and that means competent to share the air with bigger aircraft.

 

Just my two bob worth having had to outlay a lot of money for something I feel I should have been able to do with RAA.

 

 

[dutchroll]

It's ironic. Quite a number of us heavy RPT pilots get worked up about flying in uncontrolled airspace! For us the workload is far greater in uncontrolled airspace. We have traffic to look out for and separate ourselves from, we have tracking and vertical profile decisions to be made, circuit joining and spacing to think about, radio broadcasts to be made, etc.

 

In controlled airspace we do as we're told........period. We readback instructions just as they're given. We make an approach as directed. We stop descent when told to. We start it again when told to. We track exactly where we're told to. It's just so easy!

 

Of course in my leisure flying time it's slightly different. Even I do some preparation before going into CTA like knowing who I'm supposed to be talking to (check the chart), how I'm supposed to introduce myself to them (check the AIP), for transit lanes knowing what clearance I might expect to hear (check the ERSA), and being very careful of where the CTA boundary is (check the chart again)! But this is all stuff which gets done on the ground before I leave.

 

 

[turboplanner]

But how do you police it without seriously hampering the few freedoms we have left

What are these freedoms?

You don't have the freedom to injure or kill someone, and this is what we are talking about.

 

You don't have the freedom to fly below 500 feet, where you could kill yourself and passenger against a powerline.

 

You don't have the freedom to fly into cloud.

 

You don't have the freedom to get lost because you didn't have the necessary navigation equipment on board

 

You don't have the freedom to run out of fuel because you didn't physically check the level, or didn't flight plan.

 

and so on.

 

Compliance and Enforcement supervision strictly relates to those things that can prevent you from being killed.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Only a court can make a finding of guilt in our democratic system and a person is to be regarded as innocent until so proven.

Try getting a speed camera notice in the mail.

Unless you can name another person who was exceeding the speed limit, you pay.

 

 

[K-man]

What are these freedoms?You don't have the freedom to injure or kill someone, and this is what we are talking about.

You don't have the freedom to fly below 500 feet, where you could kill yourself and passenger against a powerline.

 

You don't have the freedom to fly into cloud.

 

You don't have the freedom to get lost because you didn't have the necessary navigation equipment on board

 

You don't have the freedom to run out of fuel because you didn't physically check the level, or didn't flight plan.

 

and so on.

 

Compliance and Enforcement supervision strictly relates to those things that can prevent you from being killed.

Of course the question was "how do you police" those freedoms? There is no way to prevent someone from doing any or all the things you have listed. The regulations say you can't 'legally' do a number of those things but you still are 'free' to do them if you choose. There is no way anyone can stop that short of locking people up.

Laws don't stop people doing what they want to do. Laws act as a deterrent by prescribing a penalty if you are caught breaking that law. In this case, what we are looking for is people taking responsibility for their welfare and the welfare of others, by obeying the regulations. To me, that has little to do with freedoms. Our freedom is to be able to fly. Doing that safely is up to the individual.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Try getting a speed camera notice in the mail.Unless you can name another person who was exceeding the speed limit, you pay.

An infringement is an administrative procedure in which you can chose to expiate the offence by paying the fine rather than going to court. There is no finding of guilt and no loss of human rights attached to it (there may be demerit points but there is no right to hold a driver's licence contained in the Magna Carta just as there is no right to a Pilot Certificate).

 

Everyone has the right to have the matter heard as a charge if they wish...you just sign the election on the reverse to do so and send it back to the Traffic Camera Office which will be happy to oblige.

 

In Court, you will be presumed innocent and the prosecutor will lead the informant's evidence on which you will most likely be found guilty (cameras are very hard to beat because the legislation has been amende many times to cover the loopholes).

 

Kaz

 

 

[Teckair]

That can be a bit subjective. I know people who fly comfortably when I won't, and I know that I fly when some others won't.

While I do agree you have a point there, I think there is a problem with some people who are comfortable doing dangerous things and taking unacceptable risks.

 

 

[dutchroll]

....... there is no right to hold a driver's licence contained in the Magna Carta just as there is no right to a Pilot Certificate....

Yeah I thought invoking the Magna Carta was a bit of a stretch. We're not 13th century Barons fighting King John 1. Having said that, it has been used as a loose basis for enshrining basic liberties in national laws and Constitutions over the centuries, but you still can't argue "I have a right......because......Magna Carta".

 

 

[facthunter]

You do have an implied right to fair treatment and non discriminatory processes, which seems to be becoming more accepted in civilised countries as a reasonable way to treat your fellow man (including woMAN) We aren't there yet though..

 

Climbing Mount Everest would appear to be rather dangerous. Should we ban that till they put in escalators and heated internal lifts with warm hotels and hospitals every such and such a distance?. Nev

 

 

[Keith Page]

But how do you police it without seriously hampering the few freedoms we have left? I believe education is a key point but you can't teach someone who thinks they know it all or someone who has a blatant disregard for common sense laws. Lately I have done a few hours towards getting my ll endo and have been amazed at how much I have learnt in such a short time (I certainly don't know it all but I am amazed at how much my skill set has improved) not only has my skill set improved but even though I haven't got my endorsement yet (I plan on continuing as soon as time and money allow) I feel I am even less likely to do 'beat ups' now than I ever was.So IMHO education also does help prevent incidents, if we all did an instrument rating, a ll endo and a formation endo we would be a lot safer BUT how many would that exclude from being able to afford to fly? We need a balance and I think it is close to being right, there is the base level to get our PC/RPL and then we are free to continue to expand on that as we can.

SDQDI

 

I think you are not too far off the mark with "education".

 

You go on to mention how much doing your ll endo has opened your eyes. To me that is expanding knowledge and education not more rules.

 

With education it is contagious, spreads like a virus, as I see it, that is developing a culture.

 

With culture everyone is happy and willing to share all information good or bad, people want to belong.

 

With rules they all head for the hills because every ones wants to out of that situation. Let face it who will hang about if they are getting fined, roused on, belittled and all the other demoralising activities that all these rule makers come up with while beating and puffing their chests.

 

By careful when administering rules because some innocent people will end up out side the envelop and only inadvertently.

 

Save the full wrath of the rules for the belligerent deviant people and activities --- yes hit these scallywags very hard. However help the others.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[facthunter]

If the rule makers are practical and very experienced and base their rules on reality we might get somewhere. If they are just out to make life more difficult, we end up much in the situation we are now in. ie we don't know where we are going. There is little certainty.

 

No doubt there are well intentioned people about but that alone doesn't guarantee success. Aviation has been losing experienced practical people for a while now, and it shows..Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

Climbing Mount Everest would appear to be rather dangerous. Should we ban that till they put in escalators and heated internal lifts with warm hotels and hospitals every such and such a distance?. Nev

I wouldn't ban it on the grounds of being dangerous, but I'd love to see it banned on the grounds that we've trashed the joint and comprehensively proven we can't be trusted to leave a place as we found it. Bottles, tins, food scraps, toilet paper, human excrement (yes, human sh*t which has been contaminating the water supplies and does not decompose in the extreme cold). I mean, "we" (collectively the human race) really are such a pack of idiots who actually do need to be banned from doing many things.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It is normal to do a 6 hour induction just to follow an escort vehicle onto the site then get out of our trucks and stand in a driver safe area whilst the truck is unloaded. (these a simply shipping containers, 4 twistlocks and 1 lift). To most people including myself it is a farce.

The induction is usually a first time only, but in some cases you need to be accredited through a TAFE - I agree not easy for a casual driver/contractor.

What you are describing is an elimination procedure, which guarantees ZERO driver injuries/fatalities at that site.

 

The same procedure applies in car manufacturing where, for example six people may work on the floor pan station, and before the robots start swinging around and rearing up, the bum weight of all six must register of seats away from the action before the process unlocks - guaranteed zero injuries unless they fall off their chair.

 

I would happily impose mining type safety standards on Road Transport but it would bankrupt the country in 5 mins flat. Everything in life is a compromise, we need to ask where the comfortable level between a perfect safety record and affordability stops. ps. As an aside truck drivers deaths in road accidents are not classed as workplace fatalities by any of the state authorities. If the road is not my workplace then I am stuffed if I know what is.

We are getting there with balanced legislation.

 

We now have Fatigue laws, for which I have had to redesign Prime Mover specifications.

 

We now have Chain of Responsibility laws, where the responsibility flows directly up the chain to the person demanding delivery time

 

We now have a lot more parking areas, and so on

 

I just did a very quick and broad comparison of where the truck driver and RA pilot stand in relation to the number of drivers killed per year vs number of vehicles/aircraft registered in that category, 12 months:

 

All vehicles - 593/17 million - 1 per 29,000 vehicles

 

All drivers, Heavy Rigid Trucks - 74/326,000 - 1 per 4,400 trucks

 

All drivers, Articulated trucks - 108/91,000 - 1 per 842 trucks

 

All pilots, RA aircraft - 12/3500 - per 292 aircraft

 

So when you open the door and step in, they are your overall odds for that category

 

 

[Keith Page]

The mining industry have turned their injuries around, but the cost has been prohibitive. We regularly go to mining sites and have been doing so for the last 5 to 6 years or so. It is normal to do a 6 hour induction just to follow an escort vehicle onto the site then get out of our trucks and stand in a driver safe area whilst the truck is unloaded. (these a simply shipping containers, 4 twistlocks and 1 lift). To most people including myself it is a farce. To the wives of the men who come home every 10 days I am sure it is money well spent. When I quote to a mine site, I quote to the nearest town and then hourly rate back to the same town. I work in the industry that has the highest work related fatality rate in the country so I see friends and associates die every week. I would happily impose mining type safety standards on Road Transport but it would bankrupt the country in 5 mins flat. Everything in life is a compromise, we need to ask where the comfortable level between a perfect safety record and affordability stops. Because as harsh as it may sound, a life does have a quantifiable value, we just need to decide the value of a recreational pilots life. I think in the long term, society will set that value.ps. As an aside truck drivers deaths in road accidents are not classed as workplace fatalities by any of the state authorities. If the road is not my workplace then I am stuffed if I know what is.

Hello Geoff13

 

You are so very correct with all the induction time and the cost associated with all of that industrial activity.

 

To qualify some thoughts here, I have come from surface coal mining 22 years of it, Mining is behind me now.

 

Over the years I have seen the safety procedures evolve to what they are now. You are correct trying do a task is a night mare.

 

Originally we really had one safety message "Stop and Think" not all these reams of ticks and flicks. Too me this gives a false sense of security because we have those in society that think all is OK when they have ticked it off in the book. When we get out there things have change and the situation is not what we are lead to believe it is. This a good case of rules make them feel warm and cosy as they have not broken a rule. What is wrong with a culture where one must use their noggin.

 

A little bit of information if the rules were strictly adhered to ----------------- the job would not get done.

 

I personally think a lot of this regulation interpretation is done by the fresh new graduates who do not know what happens out in the work place.

 

These graduates do not know what dust is and they are making rules regarding dust. They have graduated from one air conditioner to another air conditioner.

 

One of the most noble acts I saw when I was in the industry a member of the HR team came on sight and worked four rounds of nights, not four nights yes four rounds and they were 12hour shifts. After that a different view of night shift was developed.

 

Oh! There is another "Systems and Processes" that tells us how we must do a task.. "Trained and Qualified":- is not in the equation.

 

Thank heavens it is our flying, I hope.

 

Last of all ----- I believe the road is your work place.

 

Happy flying Geoff,

 

KP.

 

 

[Keith Page]

If the rule makers are practical and very experienced and base their rules on reality we might get somewhere. If they are just out to make life more difficult, we end up much in the situation we are now in. ie we don't know where we are going. There is little certainty.No doubt there are well intentioned people about but that alone doesn't guarantee success. Aviation has been losing experienced practical people for a while now, and it shows..Nev

The situation is ---- they are fixing these problems with rules..

 

When I was in the mining business I witnessed a very funny situation..

 

Middle order management thought they had done a wonderful fix, fixing a debacle "until" the GM came into the room roaring and bellowing "I do not want this fixed with another rule", well the heads dropped, tails jammed down and the smiling/smarting left in a hurry.

 

Now it was back to the drawing board as another rule is the easy way out..

 

Training a culture into an organisations takes hard work however it is there for ever, as I have said before it is infectious and spreads not only to the work place but life as well.

 

Regards

 

KP.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Good point Keith; training the culture is a key message for improvement. If you can turn the attitude round, then a big chunk of fatalities disappear.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

how about a new slogan?

 

there are old pilots and sloppy pilots but there are no old sloppy pilots.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Yeah I thought invoking the Magna Carta was a bit of a stretch. We're not 13th century Barons fighting King John 1. Having said that, it has been used as a loose basis for enshrining basic liberties in national laws and Constitutions over the centuries, but you still can't argue "I have a right......because......Magna Carta".

Lawyers love the Magna Carta and the way it's tenets were enshrined in various statutes an decisions leading up to the drafting of our Commonwealth Constitution which is where you see many of them now.