facthunter Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Good post Turbs. Covers it well. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Something that not a lot of people understand is that there is a whole set of RULES involved in IFR. Its instrument flight RULES. Cruising around in a CU under Visual flight RULES is a serious no no. The pax carrying dash 8 on descent and IN the CU is operating under the assumption that VFR aircraft will not be in his way, as he is given IFR traffic by ATC. hes operating under a different set of RULES, and has no obligation to look out and SEE you whilst IMC. You, the VFR pilot ARE obligated to watch where you are going. All the nasty disorientation stuff aside, flying VFR in IMC of ANY description is not something ANY pilot in Australia should be encouraging. EVER. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Well it isn't possible to fly VFR in IMC. Instrument Meteorological Conditions is NOT VFR because it doesn't comply with the parameters you must meet. (Visibility and separation minimums from cloud as specified, both horizontally and vertically) are part of Visual Flight Rules. If you want to legally fly in Instrument Meteorological Conditions you can't fly by visual cues , by definition so you fly under the IF Rules (Instrument Flight) which is a whole new set of specified conditions for the safe and legal conduct of a flight in those conditions. The aircraft must be equipped appropriately also and the pilot rated and current (recent experience) to operate the flight. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggles Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 TP with regard to (b) , I think it's a typo and you mean " not to enter IMC" ...... Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 yes, thanks Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooter75 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 excuse the noob question.. a brief synopsis of the issues here is : Spatial Disorentation - visual sensory loss leading to physically piloting the aircraft away from Straight and Level flight IMC - very rough weather that may upset or damage the aircraft and further upset the instruments Potential for traffic collision.. Yes...? Just to sound very noob...but aside from flying into a front of weather, can't you see the base of a cloud and stay right the hell away from it? Is it impossible sometimes to stay away from a descending base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooter75 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 no need to answer that guys.. i just gave up flying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 no need to answer that guys.. i just gave up flying... What the?? Really? WOW You just do as much training as you can including PIFR for GA pilots and do your best to stear clear of them. For IFR and commercial guys you have advanced training in this but you do your best to avoid it, if you can't you have your training to fall back on. And thats what AFR's are for (keeping your skills in check) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSCBD Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 To all RAA guys with no GA and IFR experience. A simple and clear answer. GO INTO REAL CLOUD AND YOU DIE. No if's or but's. If you want to prove me wrong - go to GA school and have a run with IFR instructor into cloud and see how long you last. Then tell me how long you lasted in it before you lost control - simple. End of argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 There you go SSCBD, you specify "real cloud". I guess you mean the stuff I have been referring to is not "real" cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSCBD Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 There you go SSCBD, you specify "real cloud".I guess you mean the stuff I have been referring to is not "real" cloud. Bruce - Don't get picky - you know exactly what I mean and the different levels, I assume, of thick whiteout for example or the thin wispy cloud where you can get reference to the ground etc. All is a slippy slope from killing you slightly, to the more hard core death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Rather than trying to make something up, which doesn't look all that good so far, how about looking up the REGULATION you are required to fly to and posting that, so we all get a reminder of what we are supposed to be doing to keep safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 SSCBD, my usual tactic to counter silly stuff is to offer a bet. So far, I have had zero takers to any of the bets I have offered. There is a deadly silence from the other end when I offer a bet, which proves at least to me that the other person was not so silly after all. I hereby bet you $1000 that, without an IFR instructor, I can fly into a 1 or 2 km cumulus cloud with only a turn and bank, and not die, not even a little bit. Loser to donate the money to this site. And pay any CASA extortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSCBD Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Bruce, either your age or ego is dangerous. That is also a stupid public bet to put online. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Yes Turbs, the regulations are on the side of the prohibitionists. This complete cloud-flying fear is the aviation equivalent of the fear of asbestos-cement sheeting and nuclear electricity. They all based on a lack of scientific understanding, and they all keep us poorer and less free than we need to be. Like I said, the world is complex and cannot sensibly be reduced to simple prohibitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 If you want to prove me wrong - go to GA school and have a run with IFR instructor into cloud and see how long you last. Then tell me how long you lasted in it before you lost control - simple.End of argument. No one flying VFR in VMC should want or have to, try and prove you wrong, they should already know it! They would have been taught about the danger and the regulations. VFR means staying in VMC at all times,no excuses, period. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Thanks SSCBD, of course I meant that this bet would have to be settled in a country where it was legal to fly in a bit of cloud. There used to be a ban on a magnetic Bohli compass in glider competitions... it could actually be used as an artificial horizon and so give an advantage to those who climbed in cloud. Yes they used to go into cloud for the better climb rate there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Thanks SSCBD, of course I meant that this bet would have to be settled in a country where it was legal to fly in a bit of cloud. Bruce, Please explain what a "bit of cloud," is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Guess if Bruce goes quite on the forum we will know he has flown in cloud one to many times. What really shits me is people with a huge ego saying I need no training I can easily fly in a bit of cloud I know what I am doing. Sadly these are the people that have a short life, I have known to many of these people and not many are still around because of this. Leave the clouds to the IFR guys and live another day. Debate ended... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 What is often not considered is the turbulence in a lot of IMC and it effect on small aircraft - basic computer type simulators can lead to unrealistic expectations (& reliance on autopilots). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 God I hope the aviation community don't judge us on the basis of this particular argument... Sad day when I read threads like this. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 I don't care about the judgement of the aviation community so much as the effect on student/new pilots who could easily take some of the nonsense as fact, and lose their lives; some have in recent years. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 ANYTHING that gives a replacement for the real horizon MUST have a Gyro (mechanical or digital) to do the job. No kind of pendulum will do it. Telling people "flying in cloud is not easy" is NOT another conspiracy. I've probably got more hours flying in IMC (ACTUAL), than most will ever get these days as we only used the autopilot in cruise and in smooth air, because it wasn't up to it . Yes you CAN fly on LIMITED PANEL but that requires even more effort and practice. and has a gyro in the TURN function of the Turn and slip/skid Not bank as it does not indicate bank. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Too right Nev. I have an instrument rating, and before I plan and fly IFR I try my absolute best to do the flight VFR first. I only go IMC if its really needed. I have shot a lot of approaches down to minimums which to be honest, I hate. Still, after a few hundred hours under the IFR and in IMC, I am not totally comfortable there. And thats with a full functioning bank of instruments. A few months ago I was in the right seat of a twin being flown by a friend who has a CIR and a reasonable amount of experience/ On appch the auto pilot went tits up and the pilot had to hand fly some tricky maneuvers ( vectors from ATC) . I was fixated on the AH in front of me and during a turn the pilot lost a bit of orientation the nose fell through the horizon and the bank was up to about 60 deg. I prompted her to level the wings, to which she said " they are level" . I grabbed the yoke and levelled the wings for her. That pilot has thousands of hours experience, and hundreds in IMC. Guys and girls. Dont play games or make bets with this stuff. There is only one sure bet, and the result is certainly not in your favour. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Your post Motz reminds me of how things change. You were NOT permitted to use the autopilot on an instrument approach on a check, ( and in turbulence it wasn't considered up to it). It's easy to get into a spiral. Most just think of stalling as the risk. Losing control and overloading the airframe is the scenario, with a high ROD and airspeed. nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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