turboplanner Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 55 minutes ago, nick_reese said: Incorrect! We formed the Lismore Airport Users Group, and made the following submission, which was completely ignored by the council. Lismore Airport Users Group Meeting 16 May 2021 Spectrum Aviation Hangar, Lismore Airport That looks like a normal letter discussing airport charges to me, which may be why it was ignored. The Draft Lismore Regional City Action Plan (RCAP) is a Planning Document which proposes to change the Airport forever into something completely different including industry etc. and would have required a Submission of maybe 20 to 40 pages of Aviation-related Planning information to advise against many of the proposed changes, or find solutions where the Airport could still work effectively (including a new Fly Friendly document). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick_reese Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 The proposal at the time was just to address the proposed changes in airport fees, which was the item on the agenda at the council meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 12 minutes ago, nick_reese said: The proposal at the time was just to address the proposed changes in airport fees, which was the item on the agenda at the council meeting. Can you remember what date; I'll see if I can find it. Sometimes a Council will throw up a red herring, sometimes they just sieze an opportunity when people are distracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 Even if 10,000 residents love the airport, half a dozen activists complaining about noise or possible fiery crashes can get the attention of council and delay or prevent a positive outcome. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted August 9, 2021 Author Share Posted August 9, 2021 2 hours ago, turboplanner said: he proposal at the time was just to address the proposed changes in airport fees, which was the item on the agenda at the council meeting. I think this was in response to public submission on the upcoming council budget, not the Draft Lismore Regional City Action Plan (RCAP). I did not know this level of planning even exists until turboplanner pointed it out...(Thanks again for your input)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted August 9, 2021 Author Share Posted August 9, 2021 12 hours ago, turboplanner said: You have a lot of work to do starting with identifying whether anyone else with a business has made any submission or intends to. Someone needs to present about 20 to 40 pages of submission assessing the Planning impacts from these proposals, the main one being it is not going to be recognizable as a working airport if all these plans get up. I am guessing that the planning portal NSW will have info on what you can submit, 'why you would want to' and how? Just to clarify the hierarchy of the planning levels: RCAP >> LEP>>Zoning>>DA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted August 9, 2021 Author Share Posted August 9, 2021 And thank you Turboplanner for showing me the way to find info! 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick_reese Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 Yes, the submission was just in regards to the budget. There was not really any 4 hours ago, turboplanner said: Can you remember what date; I'll see if I can find it. Sometimes a Council will throw up a red herring, sometimes they just sieze an opportunity when people are distracted. We submitted the document on June 8 - council meeting was on the 15th of June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 9, 2021 Share Posted August 9, 2021 31 minutes ago, nick_reese said: Yes, the submission was just in regards to the budget. There was not really any We submitted the document on June 8 - council meeting was on the 15th of June. I think it might have been Item 12.3 Final Adoption of 2021/2022 Operational Plan or an earlier Item Reports to the General Manager, but I couldn't get the links to work to see what was inside. In any case the urgent one and the Monster is the LRAP where the Public Exhibition period started May 17 and ended June 15. Even though it has ended I recommended to Munder that someone contact the Council (Planning Manager) and advise that you want to make a submission. The LRAP is a Planning Document which will be going to the State Government for approval, and you might get the OK to submit. The Submission must be on Planning Grounds to carry any weight, regardless of what the emotions might be because the emotions count for zero in the decision making. I recommended to Muger having a Planning Consultant prepare the submission because he/she will understand the meaning of words and phrases that can be critical for you to retain or kick out. Luckily you have five Planning Consultants in Lismore, one specialising in major project development applications and Master planning, so I'll message those to Munger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted August 13, 2021 Author Share Posted August 13, 2021 Evening All, For all of you who will have to deal with Aircraft Noise Complaints in future, the Australian Standard for this is AS2021-2000 (Acoustics - Aircraft Noise Intrusion - Building Sitting and Construction). This will eventually lead you to: https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/industry-info/anefs-and-aneis/ Turns out, this is a rather complex matter! I'll keep posting interesting things when I find them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 That winger has given me an idea. The nearby Kamilaroi Highway is getting pretty noisy; time for me to start a petition demanding that it be closed or relocated away from all residential areas… 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted August 13, 2021 Author Share Posted August 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said: The nearby Kamilaroi Highway is getting pretty noisy; time for me to start a petition demanding that it be closed or relocated away from all residential areas… Diving into the whole aircraft noise winger problem, I found that there is a larger number of articles on the Daily Telegraph about Bruxner Hwy noise.... so you may have a chance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick_reese Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 Yeah, we've got a special type of Stupid Hippy here in Lismore - the sort the goes to a protest, but doesn't know what it's about until they get there (and apologies to all Hippies - there's plenty of smart ones). I find it hard to believe that the council can take them seriously when one of the main protagonists refer to pilots as "rich thrill-seekers". I don't think they are going to get much traction on the noise issue. I live under the circuit for runway 15 and have to run outside to my verandah to hear and see the aircraft properly. I might lodge a protest to the council that the aircraft aren't noisy enough - having to run outside all the time to check out the aircraft in the circuit is causing me physical and mental stress ... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 The main urgency atm is to get a submission in to Lismore Regional City Action Plan or you'll finish up the same as Kyneton with: General Use Business Hub Warehousing Buildings 7 to 9 metres high (Rotors) Noise limits done by non-aviation people Community Hub (Ratepayer meetings, women, children, babies) We're in lockdown so no airctraft flying and I couldn't complete this attachment, but a simple comparison with the traffic driving down the streets surrounding the airport will soon tell you of there is a noise issue or not. Most of the Aircraft Noise standards are based on Jet RPT so are not representative of light aircraft training and use. This attachment gives you a tool to measure against the 24/7 access to surrounding roads by car. WX00159.docx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmccarthy Posted August 15, 2021 Share Posted August 15, 2021 We are very happy with the Kyneton plan, none of those items is a problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted August 16, 2021 Author Share Posted August 16, 2021 16 hours ago, turboplanner said: This attachment gives you a tool to measure against the 24/7 access to surrounding roads by car. That is a very interesting document! Is the reduction of noise by distance a known standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 39 minutes ago, Munger said: That is a very interesting document! Is the reduction of noise by distance a known standard? Yes, you should be able to find it without too much trouble. The achilles heel in my argument just yet is the analysis of the local aircraft noise during lockdown, but it does look promising. In the past I was able to use that argument to get speedways in some otherwise impossible places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munger Posted August 16, 2021 Author Share Posted August 16, 2021 1 minute ago, turboplanner said: The achilles heel in my argument just yet is the analysis of the local aircraft noise during lockdown In your opinion, do we want a horizontal distance away from the aircraft or directly under the flight path at full noise take-off passing overhead? (That would be worst case scenario) We can always do a ground cruise run at a horizontal distance away from the aircraft (we know which one is the noisiest that frequents the airport). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Just now, Munger said: In your opinion, do we want a horizontal distance away from the aircraft or directly under the flight path at full noise take-off passing overhead? (That would be worst case scenario) We can always do a ground cruise run at a horizontal distance away from the aircraft (we know which one is the noisiest that frequents the airport). The key thing is what the residents are (a) what the residents are actually hearing and (b) what, if anything is annoying them. (a) Just to get an idea of what Lismore aircraft are producing, a horizontal reading from the nearest street to the runway for a take off with the engine WOT with the microphone in the centre of the closest lane to the houses (without getting bowled over. That noise should be reasonable consistent for the take off run to lift off when the additionl altitude extends the distance. (on a calm day). Then some vertical readings under downwind, again the microphone on the closest point to the pattern (directly underneath) Then vertical on the closest street under short final. Then vertical on the closest street under take off. and maybe a couple of readings from streets slightly further out on the take off line to see how the noise diminishes. That should be a good start to decide whether my comparison is going to be useful. I'd do both typical light aircraft and any Jet RPT, so in discussions you can differentiate from the two different Uses, (compare the light aircraft with legally allowed motor vehicles 24/7 and separate discussion on conditions for RPT using the Airservices Australia data, which may entails some curfew or runway departure action (similar to the new conditions on the helicopter of dropping down below the cliffs on the run up to the hospital to reduce noise.) (b) can be very interesting. On one city speedway we were having trouble with one resident who had taken to phoning up the Council every meeting. The track had agreed to a 10:30 pm curfew, which produced a few no-result finals, and had tried mufflers, but interstate visitors arrived on the night with open exhausts. so one hot night I walked down the to resident's house with a noise meter. The family was sitting in the front garden having a few beers so I introduced myself and told them what I was doing, let them use the noise meter themselves, and they were inclined to agree that even sitting outside, the noise numbers were not excessive. Suddenly the husband opened up with "There, THAT"S what gets into my brain!" It was the aggressive commentator, several dB(A) higher than the cars, so we toned down the speaker system, and that ended the calls to the Council. We stayed in a caravan park for a week once near the Whitsundays and were woken every morning at 5 am by a 182 prop noise down the full length of the runway and over the top. That would be the sort of issue in this catergory, where it would fail the motor vehocle test, but something could be done about that aircraft, rather than affect the whole aircraft fleet including training. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 3 hours ago, turboplanner said: …On one city speedway we were having trouble with one resident… Suddenly the husband opened up with "There, THAT"S what gets into my brain!" It was the aggressive commentator, several dB(A) higher than the cars, so we toned down the speaker system, and that ended the calls to the Council. What an excellent outcome, Turbs. Shows the value of opening a communication channel. I suspect most noise complains arise from only a portion of a particular activity. My example: It beats me how anyone can tolerate, let alone listen to horse-race callers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Just now, Old Koreelah said: What an excellent outcome, Turbs. Shows the value of opening a communication channel. I suspect most noise complains arise from only a portion of a particular activity. My example: It beats me how anyone can tolerate, let alone listen to horse-race callers. Yes, another example is at earthworks sites where tippers are coming in. People complain about the truck noise, but the noise which upsets them is the explosive sound of the huge tailgates as some drivers accelerate forwards and then slam their foot on the brakes to shake clay off the tailgate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Another PITA for the nearby residents is reversing beepers; quite a few end up sounding pretty sick, possibly because they had stuff jammed into them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Old Koreelah said: Another PITA for the nearby residents is reversing beepers; quite a few end up sounding pretty sick, possibly because they had stuff jammed into them. They have improved in recent years, previously being audible from a couple of kiometres. The current ones make a hissing sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Koreelah Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 8 minutes ago, turboplanner said: They have improved in recent years, previously being audible from a couple of kiometres. The current ones make a hissing sound. My stint in a mining town taught me that some people have no consideration. Each morning I was woken before dawn when the change-of-shift bus reversed around the large car park below my window. There was mobs of room and no reason for any driver to engage reverse gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Binghi Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Just put up some wind power generators around the airport. Nobody will notice the aircraft noise then...🙉🤫 . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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