Am I missing something ?

[bacchus]

Today I test flew an aircraft currently for sale and advertised in our circles. To say I have come away concerned is one hell of an understatement !

 

I do not wish to identify the aircraft specifically , although I have been very straight forward with the owner regarding the way the aeroplane was advertised.

 

Am I overreacting ??

 

Aircraft advertised with 270 hrs TT ( changed slightly to avoid identification )

 

When wanting to confirm the motor was 270 hrs from new I was told it had a " Floods Overhaul " 270 hrs ago , no probs.

 

This occured A few days ago , anyway the flight did not take place that day as the aircraft would simply not start !!

 

days later , phone call , problem solved , battery was cactus and has been replaced , no probs make a date for today .

 

Took one heck of a long time to kick over this morning , eventually got running and sounded pretty good , so off on the test flight , Taxi out , check Hobbs Meter , not moving !!

 

Finished flight , pretty good , Quized re Hobbs , was told that it is configured to START COUNTING AT 60 KTS !! So it does not cut in until flight as he only wants to record " Flying Hours " So all the hours spent taxiing , warming up are not recorded ( surely this is not normal ??? )

 

Best of all when I asked what parts were replaced in the overhaul and could I view the invoice , I was told it was actually an " inspection " and as all was in good condition

 

the engine was re assembled with no new parts required !!

 

So I asked where he sourced the engine and he advised that he bought it second hand and it had done " about 1100 hrs " when he bought it ! To me that means the engine has done about 1370 hrs NOT 270 Total Time !! Am I going over the top ? Or is this normal ?

 

Sorry long rambling post Pretty Annoyed:angry:

 

 

[rick-p]

Hi Bacchus, no you are not 'overreacting' in fact I think that you have done the right thing posting your concerns.

 

In fact I think that you should report it to the RAA before someone less worldly comes along and purhases the aircraft and kills themselves and/or someone else.

 

It is the type of Bull:censored: that you have been put through by this person that needs to be nipped in the bud sooner rather than later.

 

We don't need used car salesmen selling defective aircraft to the innocent.

 

It is nothing more than an act of fraud.

 

Regards,

 

Rick-p

 

 

[dodo]

I don't think you have missed anything. I am only learning to fly, but from what I can see:

 

- flying is expensive, and most of us would like to fly more, or better aircraft than we can afford;

 

- aircraft, and especially engines, have a valuation based on flying hours, or hours to next major expense;

 

So, just like cars when I was younger, there are always a number of people selling cars with the odometer wound back, or otherwise not quite as advertised.

 

I would advise caution, especially when an aircraft is advertised as having "only been flown by a little old lady to church every week". Maybe ask which church?

 

But it is entertaining, in a profession that prides itself on precision, care, and responsibility!

 

dodo

 

 

[Guest terry]

I think I'd run a mile

 

 

[Tomo]

Pretty depressing...

 

With the hr meter, that one is an airframe hr meter that starts up with airspeed. It should have another for engine time. If not, well... who knows what it's done.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Thanks for sharing mate, as per the Hobbs, thats crap, IMO.Anyway well done mate.We did have a new teccy i was flying, the hourmetre stoped just after i had taken off, no worries, i timed the flight with my watch. It was a simple fix.The connection, had vibrated half off.Looked liked it was on, but it wasnt.Anyway Davey Maison, took it for a fly, problem solved. (Got a level 2 to sign it off).Cheers mate

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

This is what a L2 is for. A qualified pre purchase report goes a long way and is money well spent by the inexperienced if the inspection is done in a professional manner

 

But having said that we still see aircraft signed off in the condition of that drifter recently. i belive that it is an area that the RAAus must address. the condition of the airframe can be examined easily but it is a little harder for the powerplant especially if it relies on the honesty of the owner. if you suspect hours not adding up ask to see the pilots/owners log book if it is a private sale.

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

Hi Bacchus

 

From what you say, the advertiser is running a serious risk of prosecution under the fair trading act for misleading and false advertising .... I'm not sure, but could involve prison sentences, especially if someone is killed, injured or suffers serious loss because they believed what they were told ..... If I were him, I would withdraw the advrt in a hurry and re advertise in a way that does not mislead ... just my opinion ...

 

RD

 

 

[bacchus]

Yes Ozzie an L2 inspection was the next step and to the sellers credit he was fine with that and was even prepared to pay for it.

 

Which is why I am so flabbergasted , I still am not sure if he was intentionally out to mislead

 

or he is just plain stupid !

 

He still could not see anything wrong with him advertising the aircraft / engine at a total time of 270 hrs because " he had it checked out "

 

So I put it to him when do you consider the TBO to be due ( if 1500 hrs recommended by manufacturer ) to which there was no real response.

 

All I know is that if I had of purchased the aircraft I would have carried on merrily doing 100 hour inspections for the next 1230 hrs and gearbox checks as req'd. Where all the engine components had worked an extra 1100 hrs , not to mention the non metered taxi and run ups.

 

As for the Hobbs I did not even want to go there , As Tomo said if he wanted to run a meter for air time only there should have been another for the total running time IMOP.

 

Just annoyed that I Had to dig deep for the info on the previous 1100 hrs

 

 

[XAIRVTW]

No I dont think you've over reacted, But I would report this to the RAA straight away! Who knows what else he isn't disclosing about the aircarft in question.

 

 

[Tomo]

In GA, an engines life can legally be measured on the flying hours., not the oil clock hours.

Really?

 

I would always go by the "actual" engine hrs If I was doing it. Because if you check the differences between them both - actual vs airspeed - there is usually quite a difference.

 

From my understanding, the airframe inspections/work are carried out using the airframe clock, and the engine maintenance is done with the engine one. Either activated by oil pressure, alternator, vibration, tacho etc...

 

It's designed to save money on unnecessary airframe inspection, as the engine usually does more hrs than the airframe. Not save money on checking off the engine, that's a bit weird.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Actually the Hobbs meter hooked to a an air pressure tab on the wing to record flying hours is quite normal and legal. In GA, an engines life can legally be measured on the flying hours., not the oil clock hours.

Quite correct. However if the engine in question is a 912, the latest maintenance manual specifies that the schedule is based on engine run hours.

 

However, there is normally always an engine hours Hobbs meter as well that is activated by engine oil pressure and guess what, that is the hours you are charged for when hiring aircraft. I actually don't see that as an issue.

Its also much closer to the brakes off-brakes on time that the pilot logs.

 

The bigger issue is the lack of credible information on the engine. There should have been a log book on the engine that came with the engine from new and should show all so called "flood overhaul" data. No problem with a second hand engine in a new aircraft, but show the engine records accurately and don't attempt to deceive.

Hit the nail on the head. Shouldn't have to rely on verbal reports from the current owner - all the maintenance should be recorded in the aircraft/engine logbook.

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yep, but thats how it is. Sometimes its a tacho vs VDO, sometimes its an actual airswitch, either way doing maintenance on the tach time is pretty standard stuff.

 

The concern I would have is the guy not being honest re the engine. What else is he hiding?

 

 

[blueshed]

Just a Question oe two about the various types of meter's and metering.

 

A hobbs meter as reffered to at the begining of this thread- is it generally on when Master is on? Have seen it like this in a Teccynam!

 

Tacho time, as in my Bede, I believe does only count clock hours when at certain RPM, therefore allowing for how many RPM's the engine has done in it's life, ie takes into account warm up @ lower RPM, T O @ high RPM, and normal cruise RPM and maybe even decent RPM. Am I right here?

 

I think the Tacho in a Jab actually counts Clock time, when engine is running, don't think it counts when the master only is turned on. Correct or not?

 

Airswitch as already stated, turns on and of @ a preset airspeed and counts clock time when ON! Correct or Not?

 

Logable time as for the aircraft is wheels of to wheels on the ground. Correct or Not?

 

Pilot logable time as I learnt was from point of Taxi to engine shut down, measured with a clock. Correct or Not?

 

Awaiting enlightenment!

 

 

[flying dog]

I'll also caution you that if the seller is quite happy to pay for the report, this is not always good.

 

If YOU are buying the plane, YOU take the plane to YOUR mechanic. Not his!

 

So unless you know an INDEPENTANT person who has no loyalties to either party do not trust the report for which he pays either.

 

 

[Ding]

Hours.

 

Hi all,

 

This sort of thing really gets my goat.

 

The hour meter in my Sky starts as soon as the engine exceeds 100rpm. So is a real indication of the hours that the engine has been running.

 

I currently have my plane for sale, and unfortunately, this sort of experience tars us all with a bad brush. Who can blame potential purchasers for being sceptical. Or is this the role of the condition report.

 

If the seller is confident in the product, then why be shifty about the history.

 

Thats my two pennies worth anyway.

 

Ding.

 

PS. Only to pleased to have a purchaser have their own level 2 do the condition report.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Who can blame potential purchasers for being sceptical. Or is this the role of the condition report.

Potential purchasers should always be extremely sceptical !

 

To quote the caveat on the condition report form - it is a "summary of readily assessable condition only NOT of airworthiness".

 

Caveat Emptor !

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[jetjr]

My understanding is "tach time" as some EMS setups can provide gives a better estimate of engine operation time as it only runs at full speed at certain rpm - cruise

 

All other lower rpm the clock slows accordingly.

 

The reson being the engine wears out per rev not per minute

 

Based on this a proper tach time is the one to service on.

 

Both Air switch and vibration or oil pressure switched time are other ways to provide the same off set and prevent accidental reading.

 

I think all AC should have Total time too when Master is ON - BUT imagine leaving master on by accident for a few days.

 

Im not sure this guy understands how TT and engine services work. The ONLY way an engine returns to zero hrs if if engine manufacturer fully rebuilds it (and certifies "zero time")

 

Id reckon some LAME's could do this too but its nearly a new engine - sometimes only reuse block and crank after being crack tested etc. They are usually close to new price too.

 

Other than this it keeps clocking up no matter what repairs are done.

 

Aircraft TT goes on forever.

 

GA aicraft talk "Hours To Run" on props and engines. ie hours till overhaul. "On condition" means out of time but still going under strict inspection and testing. All by LAME of course.

 

AC Logbooks will usually show if hours match up with clocks although its not that hard to alter them. Accurate and detailed logbooks add significant value to an aircraft in my opinion.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Jetr you're on the money, you can pretty well forecast engine life by the kilometres travelled by a piston over the period. On a well built engine,fueld, lubricated and serviced to its designers recommendations the life cycles are remarkably similar.

 

On a fleet of 1800 trucks I was progressively able to predict to about 30,000 km in over 500,000 km when engines might start to drop.

 

Once you start ignoring piston travel (as in not counting start up, taxying etc) you are fudging life cycle figures so you don't know where safety ends and nasty surprises start.

 

 

[bacchus]

For the record

 

NO second meter is installed to indicate total engine run time. And I am sorry David as I do think He has done something wrong unless a Rotax tbo is worked on engine hours spent working at over 60 kts ! ( If so I stand corrected )

 

You may be quite correct that this is common with GA aircraft ( you read between the lines)

 

Buyer Beware ABSOLUTELY !!

 

And to finish on this matter for those who think this is acceptable conduct

 

perhaps YOU would like to buy an aircraft only done 270 hrs TT !! :thumb_up:

 

if so drop me a PM I know where there is a beauty !

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

Buyer Beware ABSOLUTELY !!

This is true, but also an advertisement that is incorrect in some substantative way is misleading advertising at the least (if accidental) and possibly fraudulent as well (if deliberate or if you could reasonably expect the advertiser to know the truth) ......

I think that the consumer laws expect truth in advertising! ... I know that that is true in respect of advertisements placed by businesses and that businesses face large fines for transgressions ..... not sure about individuals but suspect the laws are the same ......

 

RD

 

 

[dazza 38]

Hi Blueshed,as to your post #15, i not sure with the newer Jabiru,s, the LSA 55, that Skyfox flight training used in the Mid 1990,s. The hour metre ran with the master on.Gave the school, heaps of grief.It happen a few times, master left on, by students. Left on overnight once. Cheers

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Bachus. Aircraft all over Australia run various combinations of Tach, Vdo, hobbs, airswitch. RAA and GA. Im not defending the seller in this case at all, just enlightening you.:thumb_up:

 

 

[deadstick]

meters

 

Aircraft hour meter is just that, hooked up to oil pressure (HOBBS) it records airframe use and is used to schedule maintenance on airframe and engine. The idea of airswitch meters and Tacho is so the club only pays for flight time and not warm up and taxi. Some switchs are incorrectly hooked up to mains power and this reflects battery usage and not actual airframe time hence ripping owners off on airframe maintenance. Clubs generally charge on oil pressure and pay on airswitch (> 30 knots) the difference between tacho and airswitch one uses airspeed and the other starts counting above a preset RPM hence stopps running when on final,taxi, idle etc making a larger gap between that charged to the pilot and that payed to the owner. Those that are using and airswitch or tach meter for engine maintenance cycles are not complying with the manufacturers guidelines. my 2 cents!

 

And Tomo whenever the engine is running the airframe hrs should be cycling as vibration is just one of the engineering conciderations encompassed when an airframe is given a life time limit.

 

Pretty depressing...With the hr meter, that one is an airframe hr meter that starts up with airspeed. It should have another for engine time. If not, well... who knows what it's done.

[facthunter]

Monitoring/ recordng times.

 

The correct entering of all maintenance, hours flown etc in the engine/prop and airframe log books is the only way to have any idea of what you are buying. In some areas they are a legal requirement (if not all). The aircraft could not be considered not airworthy if they are not up to date. You are not buying something like a lawn mower here. It also indicates the attitude of the previous owner/ seller. In my view. He should be criminally liable for misrepresenting the facts

 

re recording of "flying" time. the poor student is being robbed with solo, if the meter starts running when the master s/w is turned on, but then the briefing time is not separately noted or charged, either when doing dual.

 

A "hobbs" meter derives it's info from the tacho and records when the engine turns essentially the number of turns, and is the accepted and honest way of recording engine time for usage related overhaul requirements. Other methods may be approved.

 

"Flight time " is just that and is usually leg or airspeed switch related. This is for airframe time recording. Pilots usually call any time recorded from engine start to shut down as "flight" time Nev