Guest wondai aviation Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Who would like to tell me just how safe these crop duster pilots are that leave their motors going with "LIVE" propellors spinning while they shoot off into sheds , else where on the aerodrome and heaven knows where else , then when they are quizzed about it say , aaaah well it's in our "ops manual" so we can !! then that all intelligent claim is made , it would be commercially unviable to switch the motor off then turn it back on again . Come on , I bet there will be a few that will back 'em' , come on lets hear you ! Let's hear how these clowns claim that all poeple that come into the area of the pilotless running aircraft are thoughly briefed and that chock's and all other safety precautions are taken before the pilot leaves the cockpit . "NOT" ! It's a shame that a little common sense can't anticipate that should there be a propellor strike of a person it will most probably be fatal so therfore forget about CASA approved ops manuals , CAR's , CAO's and all the rest , the facts are these fools will end up in the federal court on criminal and litigation proceedings ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Your post leaves me in a state of bewilderment. At all times, aerial application is a poker game, the rules of which are accepted by those that sit at the table. Apart from normal "CDF" safety concerns, what is your point? Enlightenment please. tks 'n rgds Riley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanzahero Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Side note in reference to the title..... Q. How much force does it take to stop an aeroplane propeller? A. Half a Newton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest burbles1 Posted December 23, 2010 Share Posted December 23, 2010 Isn't the correct term "half a Newton meater"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spin Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 Sharp, very sharp:laugh:! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 Sick? Well Yes. Quite a few very cutting remarks there. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 Side note in reference to the title.....Q. How much force does it take to stop an aeroplane propeller? A. Half a Newton. I was going to say that this morning, but i thought I might get in trouble.:big_grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 I've certainly heard of a dog being launched into orbit by a crop duster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 No doubt about it, a spinning propellor is deadly, and at very best will relieve you of at least one limb, and leave you severly maimed,....if your lucky, most die instantly. I once witnessed a large fluffy dog (Samoi) attempt to transit through the spinning prop of a C182 warming up on the ramp at Camden. There was a funny Buuuurrrrrppppp sound, and what was left of the dog running down the nearby hangar wall. Consiquently he didn't survive the encounter, and the remains were just hosed off. Dogs just don't understand or see spinning props, just like birds don't understand glass windows. Ag pilots lead a strange existance. They are up at sparrow**** (a second after last owl hoot) and airborne at first light, as the best spraying is done in nil wind conditions. Depending on what they are spraying or dropping, they may finish anytime between 8am to 10am . If weather is great and they are behind, they may spray all day, but are just as likely to be found snoozing by noon. A couple of hours before sunset the whole process starts again, and they'll often land a minute or two either side of last light. They are by regulation allowed to do a "hot refuel" IE: refuel with the engine running, and often do. Their engines and handbrakes are some of the best maintained in the business, assuming their maintenance is good.. They are also in my experience some of the most talented hands-on pilots of all, mostly operating at low level with max weight take-offs, and zero weight landings. Ag planes are unique in that they have a "dump-lever" in the cockpit, which allows them to dump the whole load in a few seconds, if things go sour on take-off, as it often can. If Wondais' pilot left his aircraft idling on the tarmac, he no doubt had good reason to do so. Maybe he was hustling up the refueler, trying to get in another load before the wind came up, calling a farmer about the next load, or taking a quick pee. Regardless, it was his working envioriment, and all not associated with it should remain clear, not question his methods. Instead stand back and be thankfull that you have the opportunity to watch a master at work !!...I'm sure he didn't do anything unsafe..............................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wondai aviation Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 A cowboy do some unsafe ? , of course not ! Just ask Ivan Milat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spin Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 A cowboy do some unsafe ? , of course not !Just ask Ivan Milat. Ok, I'll admit it, I'm still confused:loopy: That said, the thread elicited some first class chirps, so all's not lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 Who would like to tell me just how safe these crop duster pilots are that leave their motors going with "LIVE" propellors spinning while they shoot off into sheds , else where on the aerodrome and heaven knows where else , then when they are quizzed about it say , aaaah well it's in our "ops manual" so we can !! then that all intelligent claim is made , it would be commercially unviable to switch the motor off then turn it back on again . Come on , I bet there will be a few that will back 'em' , come on lets hear you !! Normally it's only turbines that are left running, these are very expensive to run and too many start/stops can make it uneconomical. With costs upward of half a million dollars to overhaul the operation of them is monitored closely. Let's hear how these clowns claim that all poeple that come into the area of the pilotless running aircraft are thoughly briefed and that chock's and all other safety precautions are taken before the pilot leaves the cockpit . "NOT" !! "Clowns" is harsh, to fly AG machinery you have to have a commercial licence with Agicultural training. They don't let fools fly 1 to 2 million dollar Aircraft. It's a shame that a little common sense can't anticipate that should there be a propellor strike of a person it will most probably be fatal so therfore forget about CASA approved ops manuals , CAR's , CAO's and all the rest , the facts are these fools will end up in the federal court on criminal and litigation proceedings ! Aircraft are normally left on loading pads or away from public areas, public access is discouraged because of hazardous materials and work area. Curious about your attitude to AG pilots, had a run in with a bloke trying to do his job have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopdangler Posted December 24, 2010 Share Posted December 24, 2010 really need to get a grip wondai....and appreciate what the ag guys are doing and why CASA approves their ops as such. Jack Newton got all cut up walking into the spinning prop of the C210 which was to take him somewhere and unfortunately was blind drunk when he staggered into almost oblivion....and had nothing to do with ag or for that manner Ivan Milat:loopy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetjr Posted December 27, 2010 Share Posted December 27, 2010 Just a few points here, these guys do this work all the time and are highly skilled and professional. They do what looks to us like crazy stuff but thet doesnt make them cowboys. Theyre turbines, so dont confuse idling like in a piston engine Prop is able to be fully feathered so no thrust, its also much higher from the ground. Id guess dogs could walk under it??? Aircraft engines maintained on No cycles (idle to max rpm) and starts so it costs heaps to shut down Often they cant restart themselves due to lack of battery power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wondai aviation Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Who would like to tell me just how safe these crop duster pilots are that leave their motors going with "LIVE" propellors spinning while they shoot off into sheds , else where on the aerodrome and heaven knows where else , then when they are quizzed about it say , aaaah well it's in our "ops manual" so we can !! then that all intelligent claim is made , it would be commercially unviable to switch the motor off then turn it back on again . Come on , I bet there will be a few that will back 'em' , come on lets hear you !Let's hear how these clowns claim that all poeple that come into the area of the pilotless running aircraft are thoughly briefed and that chock's and all other safety precautions are taken before the pilot leaves the cockpit . "NOT" ! It's a shame that a little common sense can't anticipate that should there be a propellor strike of a person it will most probably be fatal so therfore forget about CASA approved ops manuals , CAR's , CAO's and all the rest , the facts are these fools will end up in the federal court on criminal and litigation proceedings ! Who would like to tell me just how safe these crop duster pilots are that leave their motors going with "LIVE" propellors spinning while they shoot off into sheds , else where on the aerodrome and heaven knows where else , then when they are quizzed about it say , aaaah well it's in our "ops manual" so we can !! then that all intelligent claim is made , it would be commercially unviable to switch the motor off then turn it back on again . Come on , I bet there will be a few that will back 'em' , come on lets hear you !Let's hear how these clowns claim that all poeple that come into the area of the pilotless running aircraft are thoughly briefed and that chock's and all other safety precautions are taken before the pilot leaves the cockpit . "NOT" ! It's a shame that a little common sense can't anticipate that should there be a propellor strike of a person it will most probably be fatal so therfore forget about CASA approved ops manuals , CAR's , CAO's and all the rest , the facts are these fools will end up in the federal court on criminal and litigation proceedings ! Well , I offer thanks to Maj and other's for their input. A comment or two here if I may . I appreciate how the enthusiast/hobby flyer finds enthrowling a once a month or so expedition out to the local airport to challange their percieved "piloting skills" and how it is so forfulling to compare "pilot talk" with other like minded hobbiest's . There is another arena of small plane aviation you know , it's mainly confined to the "VH" relm these days , it is that of the full time student , userally pertrayed as more of a pursuit in education , the full time student is userally confined to the International or University student that is on a flying program all week long unlike the "hobbiest" who may frequent their local flying club once a month , this group of "wouldbe's" pursue flying from 6am to 5pm every day , their aim of course is airline employment . Although recently I have heard of CASA's new plan's to revamp into recreational aviation , this has not been the case in the past , I believe that CASA has previously placed far to much emphisis on airlines and airline students and thus left a terminal defecit of concerntration to other area's such as G.A and crop dusting . Therfore my explanation of the terms above "telanted hands on pilots oparating at low level" are flyers that have been left to their own divises without any supervision or education guidence from the legislator (CASA) for far to long , some may coin the phrase "cowboy" applicable here. Referring this back to "hot starting" from memory the CASA referance is CASR part 137 , yes "refuelling" but this bloke was walking around the airport talking to poeple ! In short , turn the motor off , I know about turbine engines being hard to start and all that , just simply "turn the motor off ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz3g Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Wondai said: "I appreciate how the enthusiast/hobby flyer finds enthrowling a once a month or so expedition out to the local airport to challange their "piloting skills" and how it is so forfulling to compare "pilot talk" with other like minded hobbiest's ." Most of us here have lives consumed by aviation; many own their own aircraft; and some have constructed their own. Some have many thousands of hours in their logs and multiple endorsements including aerial AG, mustering and aerobatics. I suggest very few of us are so vacuous as you suggest. "There is another arena of small plane aviation you know , it's mainly confined to the "VH" relm these days..." And some of us here are heading down the commercial path, too. We aren't about dividing, or conquering or placing one pursuit above the other. We simply respect that while most aspects are common, there are differences, including the regulatory regimes that appear to separate us. "... my explanation of the terms above "telanted hands on pilots oparating at low level" are flyers that have been left to their own divises without any supervision or education guidence from the legislator (CASA) for far to long , some may coin the phrase "cowboy" applicable here." I seriously doubt anyone involved in aerial AG would agree they have been left to their own devices by CASA. I'm sure CASA would not agree, either. The facts are that they have been subject to significant scrutiny by boyh CASA and their association and a once very high fatality rate has plummeted as a result. "Cowboy" is misguided and offensive, in my view if applied to stereotype groups of individuals. Referring this back to "hot starting" from memory the CASA referance is CASR part 137 , yes "refuelling" but this bloke was walking around the airport talking to poeple ! You don't actually know what he was talking about or why he was waiting. He didn't stop the engine because it costs heaps to do so and adds to the wear on it...a safety as well as a cost consideration. No-one is allowed airside unless they are authorised to be there and every authorised, sensible aviator knows to keep themselves and their pax away from live airscrews... Or ought to. "In short , turn the motor off..." Aeroplanes have engines! Question for you: what licences do you hold and how long have you been aviating? Kaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I appreciate how the enthusiast/hobby flyer finds enthrowling a once a month or so expedition out to the local airport to challange their percieved "piloting skills" and how it is so forfulling to compare "pilot talk" with other like minded hobbiest's . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Wow great thread. It takes more than one newton to stop a 210 prop. It never missed a beat when he walked into the back of it. Yes he was drunk and it was late evening after they returned from an event. I've worked on many a turbine, the PT6 types will feather in idle but both the Alison (now Rolls) b17 and Garrett TPE types remain in fine and idle fast. Hot refueling is no problems as long as everyone involved is aware of where they can walk. I actually find big radials more dangerous even when they are not running. anyone ever see a radial flick a blade with no one near it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Yes .. About 5 minutes after it was shut down. ( A Genet Major) and they run hot. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wondai aviation Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Wondai said:"I appreciate how the enthusiast/hobby flyer finds enthrowling a once a month or so expedition out to the local airport to challange their "piloting skills" and how it is so forfulling to compare "pilot talk" with other like minded hobbiest's ." Most of us here have lives consumed by aviation; many own their own aircraft; and some have constructed their own. Some have many thousands of hours in their logs and multiple endorsements including aerial AG, mustering and aerobatics. I suggest very few of us are so vacuous as you suggest. "There is another arena of small plane aviation you know , it's mainly confined to the "VH" relm these days..." And some of us here are heading down the commercial path, too. We aren't about dividing, or conquering or placing one pursuit above the other. We simply respect that while most aspects are common, there are differences, including the regulatory regimes that appear to separate us. "... my explanation of the terms above "telanted hands on pilots oparating at low level" are flyers that have been left to their own divises without any supervision or education guidence from the legislator (CASA) for far to long , some may coin the phrase "cowboy" applicable here." I seriously doubt anyone involved in aerial AG would agree they have been left to their own devices by CASA. I'm sure CASA would not agree, either. The facts are that they have been subject to significant scrutiny by boyh CASA and their association and a once very high fatality rate has plummeted as a result. "Cowboy" is misguided and offensive, in my view if applied to stereotype groups of individuals. Referring this back to "hot starting" from memory the CASA referance is CASR part 137 , yes "refuelling" but this bloke was walking around the airport talking to poeple ! You don't actually know what he was talking about or why he was waiting. He didn't stop the engine because it costs heaps to do so and adds to the wear on it...a safety as well as a cost consideration. No-one is allowed airside unless they are authorised to be there and every authorised, sensible aviator knows to keep themselves and their pax away from live airscrews... Or ought to. "In short , turn the motor off..." Aeroplanes have engines! Question for you: what licences do you hold and how long have you been aviating? Kaz Wondai said:"I appreciate how the enthusiast/hobby flyer finds enthrowling a once a month or so expedition out to the local airport to challange their "piloting skills" and how it is so forfulling to compare "pilot talk" with other like minded hobbiest's ." Most of us here have lives consumed by aviation; many own their own aircraft; and some have constructed their own. Some have many thousands of hours in their logs and multiple endorsements including aerial AG, mustering and aerobatics. I suggest very few of us are so vacuous as you suggest. "There is another arena of small plane aviation you know , it's mainly confined to the "VH" relm these days..." And some of us here are heading down the commercial path, too. We aren't about dividing, or conquering or placing one pursuit above the other. We simply respect that while most aspects are common, there are differences, including the regulatory regimes that appear to separate us. "... my explanation of the terms above "telanted hands on pilots oparating at low level" are flyers that have been left to their own divises without any supervision or education guidence from the legislator (CASA) for far to long , some may coin the phrase "cowboy" applicable here." I seriously doubt anyone involved in aerial AG would agree they have been left to their own devices by CASA. I'm sure CASA would not agree, either. The facts are that they have been subject to significant scrutiny by boyh CASA and their association and a once very high fatality rate has plummeted as a result. "Cowboy" is misguided and offensive, in my view if applied to stereotype groups of individuals. Referring this back to "hot starting" from memory the CASA referance is CASR part 137 , yes "refuelling" but this bloke was walking around the airport talking to poeple ! You don't actually know what he was talking about or why he was waiting. He didn't stop the engine because it costs heaps to do so and adds to the wear on it...a safety as well as a cost consideration. No-one is allowed airside unless they are authorised to be there and every authorised, sensible aviator knows to keep themselves and their pax away from live airscrews... Or ought to. "In short , turn the motor off..." Aeroplanes have engines! Question for you: what licences do you hold and how long have you been aviating? Kaz Good On You Kaz , your a real Gem ! Kaz ..... , do you think that I quoted the correct legislative referance i.e : CASR part 137 ? , I mean who know's , may be I was wrong , the proper referance may be CASR part 133 or the CAO's or CAR's ?????? This may proof valuable to all of you at Coldstream that are pursuing "the commercial path" as a study assigment. Those that can obsorb the full time "intergrated uni diploma of aviation course long enough may even begin to realise that the modern working pilot especially in airlines is not the "hands on" real experienced Kingsford Smith seat of the pants type , they are in fact a Kevin Rudd analogy of "faceless men (and woman ) who's day to day working activity's mainly focuse on Human Factors , Work place relations , Aviation Legislation and other erea's that involve not so much the "hands on stick and rudder" as the expertise of a solicitor. No Kaz , i'm not looking to divide or separate one group from another as much as I am trying to set out the "reality" of this small plane aviation game in this day and age , the coot in the crop duster should of used the common sense to at least park the bloody thing well away from anyone that may have unwittingly walked into the propellor , its a little bush airstrip here Kaz , there's no ASIC type security to keep the public out here. I am how ever pleased that I stated the word "some" and not specifically me regarding the cowboy referance ! Ok , i'll give you one , there ya go , you got me ! , it's an engine not a motor .... I think ??? ... is it ???? Betto look up the CAO's Kaz under definitions and if it's close to poeple "TURN IT OFF" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Jet ENGINE... Radial ENGINE. Sometimes referred to as "powerplants". in the design phase but not in the field. If you "motor" an engine, you turn it on the starter (motor). but don't START it. That's my interpretation of how it is practiced. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wondai aviation Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Jet ENGINE... Radial ENGINE. Sometimes referred to as "powerplants". in the design phase but not in the field. If you "motor" an engine, you turn it on the starter (motor). but don't START it. That's my interpretation of how it is practiced. Nev Thanks Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maxhopper502 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Who would like to tell me just how safe these crop duster pilots are that leave their motors going with "LIVE" propellors spinning while they shoot off into sheds , else where on the aerodrome and heaven knows where else , then when they are quizzed about it say , aaaah well it's in our "ops manual" so we can !! then that all intelligent claim is made , it would be commercially unviable to switch the motor off then turn it back on again . Come on , I bet there will be a few that will back 'em' , come on lets hear you !Let's hear how these clowns claim that all poeple that come into the area of the pilotless running aircraft are thoughly briefed and that chock's and all other safety precautions are taken before the pilot leaves the cockpit . "NOT" ! It's a shame that a little common sense can't anticipate that should there be a propellor strike of a person it will most probably be fatal so therfore forget about CASA approved ops manuals , CAR's , CAO's and all the rest , the facts are these fools will end up in the federal court on criminal and litigation proceedings ! Wow, thanks for bundling us all as clowns, fools, and unregulated and unsupervised cowboys (sorry thats not you). While I can't talk for the poor pilot (hope it's not me) that you have accused of being dangerously negligent, i can say that usually there is a person that is trained to load the aircraft that will tell you if your getting to close and I think you will find the pilot is watching more than you think. As for being unregulated and unsupervied that could not be further from the truth. CASA and the Aerial agricultural association of Australia are very proactive in keeping pilots safe and up to date through training and meetings that are held at numerous locations throughout Australia. We are also subject to annuals not biannual that are done by the chief pilot while you are working to make sure no bad habits have crept in. Hot starts are a turbines worst enemy and if they can be avoided they will. It is not uncommon and preferred to start at sparrow fart and to run all day till dusk with the one start and I don't think I have ever put anyones life in danger by doing this. While the props in feather even with brakes off the planes not going to go anywhere especially if its got 3000 l of water in it. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Surely the Ag pilot works in a workplace and that has it't rules. the general public should not be in that workplace and if their rules allow leaving the engine running so be it. We are in a situation in Australia where too many people are poking their noses into matters they don't understans. Of course I am one of those people, it was only a fortnight ago i told a pilot that it was not appropriate for him to leave his plane unattended with the engine running. He did concur with me and stopped the engine with no bad words. It was at an airstrip where people could walk around easily and even if the prop did not get them, they could have nudged the throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirsty Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 From Merriam-Webster online dictionary: Engine: 4: a machine for converting any of various forms of energy into mechanical force and motion; also : a mechanism or object that serves as an energy source <black holes may be the engines for quasars> Motor: 1: one that imparts motion; specifically : prime mover 2: any of various power units that develop energy or impart motion: as a: a small compact engine b: internal combustion engine; especially : a gasoline engine c: a rotating machine that transforms electrical energy into mechanical energy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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