Guest sunfish Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I am increasingly nervous about the reliability of what little information I have about Recreational aircraft. This is not any reflection on the people administering the RAA who after all, give up their precious time as volunteers. I will try and explain my problem as simply as possible and pose the questions that still remain unanswered in the hope that any information supplied is of use to others in my predicament. I am undertaking a program of what is called due diligence before making a purchase decision. In the case of an aircraft purchase, this involves an assessment of fitness for purpose. By that I mean that the aircraft has safe characteristics, is reliable and that it can be maintained and operated in the way I require while complying with applicable laws and regulation. My first question relates to the foreshadowed increase of RAA weights for kit built amateur constructed aircraft to 600Kg. Is this going to happen? If so, approximately when? I note from a summary of the RAA Board meeting that the RAA proposes to introduce a rule about how MTOW will be calculated for the purposes of allowing an RAA aircraft on to the register. From the limited information in the summary, a calculation will be made allowing for the weight of pilot and passenger and "90 minutes fuel". Could someone like to spell out exactly how this calculation will be made including assumptions? By way of example, I'm interested in building a Zenith CH750 the BEW is coming in at around 355 kg. Allowing 160 kg standard weights I get 515 kg. Assuming the 544kg limit remains and allowing Eight ltrs of unuseable fuel, that gives me 32 litres of useable fuel which is 106 minutes (no reserves) at an arbitrary rotax fuel flow of 18 litres per hour. In other words, the value of my investment hangs on the interpretation the RAA may make on how this calculation is to be made. As well as that, if the 544 kg limit remains, no sale since the aircraft effectively only has about a Fifty mile range while remaining legal, and is thus useless. The aircraft by the way, has an MTOW of 650 kg in experimental category and was originally designed to meet U.S. LSA requirements. RAA registration is a backup in case I lose my medical. Furthermore telling me to "read the regulations' is not an answer. The regulations are opaque and full of assumptions that have to be made when reading them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 The figures to allow it on the register are one thing, defining a limit outside of which it just won't be on the register, but to operate it legally ( being your responsibility) you will be using actual weights. At 355 Kgs empty you are in trouble with 2 POB.. There are plenty of aircraft that cannot carry a full compliment of passengers anf FULL fuel. 544 Kgs is restrictive for sure. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 CASA applies the restriction not the RAA. CASAs intent with the RAA is about affordable flying, just buy something that fits inside the rules and you will be fine. If you want the 600Kgs skip the homebuilt and buy a factory built plane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storchy neil Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 CASA applies the restriction not the RAA. CASAs intent with the RAA is about affordable flying, just buy something that fits inside the rules and you will be fine. If you want the 600Kgs skip the homebuilt and buy a factory built plane yep :thumb_up::thumb_up::thumb_up: neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crezzi Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 My first question relates to the foreshadowed increase of RAA weights for kit built amateur constructed aircraft to 600Kg. Is this going to happen? If so, approximately when? Yes and now http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2011L00615 http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2011L00617 Cheers John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryon Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Yes and nowhttp://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2011L00615 http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2011L00617 Cheers John Does this mean that the weight and height limit are increased as of 15 April or is there a wait period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sunfish Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Thank goodness for that! This means, I think, we are good to go. Class C and D airspace while I have a medical, current BFR and certificated engine, transponder and radio. Not above 10,000ft. Good for the coastal route, transit of YMAV and into YMMB while holding a valid PPL. "Glide clear" requirement is doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 What are you waiting for then, Geoff. Stop wasting your time on other forums and start building - however, I expect regular progress reports on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sunfish Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 To hear is to obey. Just need a demo flight with AB and a month or Two to organise the cash. Kit delivery is around Three months I think.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete8862 Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Where do existing planes with 544 kg. stand, do they remain the same? what if you are rebuilding one can it go up to 600kg.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Communications Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 That means the Savannah can now legally go to 560kg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jake.f Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sunfish Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Jake: Just a thought but I think that the legal weight limit for mtow should exclude the weight of a parachute recovery system if fitted. ???????? An MTOW is an MTOW. It's wot the designer designed the aircraft to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 ???????? Some-one told me that the tie-down kit, bottles of oil and ladder are also excluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Pity it all has to be written in Mandarin.(At least KRudd can understand it.) I think this was written by Manderins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 That means the Savannah can now legally go to 560kg Great news: the extra 16 kg is just enough for your ballistic parachute :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jake.f Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopdangler Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 What is that on your avatar SN...it looks broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastmeg2 Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that there is an extra weight allowance in the CAO's for a ballistic parachute, but can't seemt o find it in the old or new CAO's or remember where I read it. Anyone else remember or am I just gone around the bend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultralights Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Sunfish, get yourself a Savannah Kit, ours comes in at 280 Kg empty, plus 115 Ltrs fuel long range tanks(83kg) 2 Pax at 90, (180kg) gives a total of 543 Kg! so thats 2 people and enough fuel for a 6 hr trip! or drop 35 ltrs and get yourself 4 hrs endurance with 20 Kg of baggage, and with careful loading you can get quite a bit in 20 kg. and Savvys are built to 600 Kg MTOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEON Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Will make LSA rego a liability now with UL at same weight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Sunfish, get yourself a Savannah Kit, ours comes in at 280 Kg empty, plus 115 Ltrs fuel long range tanks(83kg) 2 Pax at 90, (180kg) gives a total of 543 Kg! so thats 2 people and enough fuel for a 6 hr trip! or drop 35 ltrs and get yourself 4 hrs endurance with 20 Kg of baggage, and with careful loading you can get quite a bit in 20 kg. and Savvys are built to 600 Kg MTOW. I can beat that Rob. 267kg empty and will go further on my standard 100 litres than your long range tanks will get you. Good to 600kg too. But not pretty enough for your better half. I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that there is an extra weight allowance in the CAO's for a ballistic parachute, but can't seemt o find it in the old or new CAO's or remember where I read it. Anyone else remember or am I just gone around the bend? I read that somewhere too Glen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDL Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 And to add to what Ultralights had to say, one of the things I am finding with a lot of kits is the desire to take the 'kitchen sink' with us. In Canada, our advanced ultralight limit is 544 kilos as well, and most planes fit in nicely with enough to take a friend or perhaps a little more. But I know of several aircraft in the local area who have autopilots, oxygen (we are allowed above 10,000), complete IFR package (although we can't fly in those conditions), and numerous bits and pieces that add up. Do we need all this? My Rans S6S (admittedly a 1993 model) weighs roughly 285 kilos. Some of the new models weigh 40-50 kilos more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Sunfish, get yourself a Savannah Kit, ours comes in at 280 Kg empty, plus 115 Ltrs fuel long range tanks(83kg) 2 Pax at 90, (180kg) gives a total of 543 Kg! so thats 2 people and enough fuel for a 6 hr trip! or drop 35 ltrs and get yourself 4 hrs endurance with 20 Kg of baggage, and with careful loading you can get quite a bit in 20 kg. and Savvys are built to 600 Kg MTOW. Savannahs and Zeniths have -over the years since the 1990s- increased the MTOW a number of times by beefing up various structural components in the plane. When I last enquired, I found out that Savvys are limited to 560 kg. Therefore, Ultralights, I was wondering what kinds of modifications you used to increase the MTOW to 600 kg? Did you get the extra parts from the Australian importer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eightyknots Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 And to add to what Ultralights had to say, one of the things I am finding with a lot of kits is the desire to take the 'kitchen sink' with us. In Canada, our advanced ultralight limit is 544 kilos as well, and most planes fit in nicely with enough to take a friend or perhaps a little more. But I know of several aircraft in the local area who have autopilots, oxygen (we are allowed above 10,000), complete IFR package (although we can't fly in those conditions), and numerous bits and pieces that add up. Do we need all this? My Rans S6S (admittedly a 1993 model) weighs roughly 285 kilos. Some of the new models weigh 40-50 kilos more. Planes (and humans too) tend to put on weight with age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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