Admin Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 If I use the term Grass Roots in a figurative manner of simply cheap and affordable flying rather then literely of Rag and Tube Ultralights, have our Grass Roots changed. Years ago we had cheap microlights (Trikes) that were simply a wing and a seat on a frame followed by the next step up being the rag and tube ultralights. Now we have the plastic fantastics replacing the rag and tube ultralights and Trikes are no longer just a seat and a wing but rather a sophisticated pod with all the mod cons...together the price of such machines, although cheaper then the GA alternatives, have hit the term of "Cheap and Affordable Fun Flying". We are now seeing a surge in the Powered Chute class of fun flying machines that are cheap and affordable. Powered Chutes have also come a long way over the years but are still very affordable with minimal overhead costs such as hangarage, distance of takeoff so shorter runways (farm paddocks etc). So for discussion purposes, is the Powered Chute the new, or becoming the new, Grass Roots of recreational aviation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 for sure, PPGs are awesome! 4 stroke PPGs are even more awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deskpilot Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 You could be right Ian. PPGs are the only flying machines that you can throw in the back of a ute or 4x4 and then fly from any paddock you choose. Like to original tube and fabric u/ls, OK so long as you only want to 'paddock bash'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 If you look at the pre-loved market, there's certainly affordable trikes and if you go 2-stroke, then you can get a trike for less than a PP.There's also 3-axis low cost aircraft still around if you ignore the plastic fantastics. I guess it depends on the type of flying you desire and can afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEON Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 There has been a lot of talk of "grass roots" flying...have we moved away from it?...new plastic fantastics are too expensive!...I do not want the cost/training/equipment to fly out of my local area...etc Regardless of the views of the "grass roots" flyers, the market now is dominated with plastic fantastics, not because the sellers want to move away from the "grass roots", but that is what sells. It is not possible to market anything (for long) if the buyers do not buy it. But what is "grass roots" flying? Some would say a powered broom stick with a Victa two stroke to whom a Drifter with (shock/horror)TWO seats, let alone a four stroke engine, is too advanced. Some others may consider a Jab LSA or Gazelle. Others a X-Air or trike. Powered chutes have their place, and good on them, but the market for most R A Aus pilots is for craft more expensive. A lot of trikes cost more than plastic fantastics such as Jab 120/160's it should be noted. Builders say that will save money. Yes, but if anyone can build (a four stroke) for under $40,000 EQUIPPED they are either: very very good; forgot to remember the cost of something; left something out; or of course built a powered broom stick with a lawn mower engine (four stroke of course!) While I respect the views of the "grass roots" flyers, the market indicates that the majority have moved on. Some people love Ford Model T's (not I), or some "classic" vehicles like LandRovers (me!), or older aircraft types (Drifter-me)...but not the majority. R A Aus has room for all of us, however if sales are an indication of what is now "grass roots", it is now a plastic fantastic! Using an artillery term..."SHOT OVER" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I suspect once the market segment for plastic fantastics is saturated the aviation manufacturing industry will stagnate like how the string bag manufacturers are now. Just need oil to hit $150 a barrell again. Next big thing will be electric planes and I suspect 600kgs will be too much for the current battery technology. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 You're a visionary F-T. I've mentioned a few times that we've passed Peak Oil, but haven't had a single bite. You can currently buy a four engined scale electric composite Hercules for about $3800.00, and it would nearly carry Ahlocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Builders say that will save money. Yes, but if anyone can build (a four stroke) for under $40,000 EQUIPPED they are either: very very good; forgot to remember the cost of something; left something out; or of course built a powered broom stick with a lawn mower engine (four stroke of course!) Heon....think outside ya plastic mate! I respect that there are a ton of people in their later years with money to burn right now and good on ya for taking it off them with a plastic fantastic. For RAA to continue on after the next few decades, there needs to be something for the younger folk with less money "NOW" to burn and I will put my left nut on it that my Pietenpol, yes its a four stroke, will come in well under $40 000! Scotty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 you can buy a tornado SS kit for US$22K, wont cost you $18K to get it flying if you use a recon jab 2200 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Don't you think that the reason so many plastic fantastics are sold is, the fact that the average Aussie has plenty of money left over for luxuries? Looking around I see people buying massive houses, running 2 or more car families, with a boat for fishing. Then the go out at least once a week for a meal out. They are still crying poor and the government ispushing the idea that the Aussie battler is going broke. Well its not happenning in Qld as far as i can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Well Ian, I don't think there is such a thing as "new grass roots" - grass roots is grass roots. But I do think there is a new 'entry level' of ultralights, and it's not PP although they certainly are attractive from a price and excitement point of view. The new entry level is the fantastic plastic, it seems to me, and yes Yenn, it seems the money is there to buy these more costly options. It's like any market - take housing for instance. Check out what is included in an entry level 1st home buyer house these days, and compare with what was on offer 20 years ago - then there is what 1st home buyers expect to put in them to start with..... No comparison, but you have to pay the price by taking a bigger mortgage. And therein lies the clue - it seems we can borrow more money for doodads these days, and ultralights are no exception. Pity really. But low cost aircraft are still available - check out the Aero-max kit for $10,000, and it's made in Tassie too. Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEON Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Bubbleboy, you have an opinion. So do I. We will it seem never agree. Thats life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Tell us more about the Aero-max Pud. I cant find anything on the web about it. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Heon...your "rearly?" not bursting my bubble. Im glad there are plastics out there. Maybe one day in my senior years I can afford one. But for now, im loving "grass roots" building and flying and teaching my 11 year old Son what its all about so he can continue it. I only wish more information was out there at events like Natfly to get more folk going along their way with it because its the most affordable way to get flying and the best fun you will have with ya clothes on! Scotty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farri Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Have our Grass Roots changed???..........Absolutely! For better or worse???.........That`s a point of view and relative to the objective!!!......................... What`s our objective??? Is the Powered Chute the new Grass Roots recreational aviation???........Who would know?.........Though the Powered Chute is one means of flying, it is a far different form of flying than the 3 axis AC and the Trike..... I suppose it will depend on it`s popularity and demand! Is recreational flying still affordable and will it be affordable in the future?............It depends how affordability is measured! Regardles of cost, there will always be those who can afford it and those who never will. We all choose the aircraft we want or can afford........As a Grass Roots recreational pilot, I choose to maintain and fly my Drifter, this makes it affordable and I get to fly regularly, however, I can accept that for a whole range of reasons, the more modern aircraft, with more creature comforts have become the most popular. If they are in greatest demand, then there may lie the answer to Ians question. And so be it!!! Frank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Tell us more about the Aero-max Pud. I cant find anything on the web about it.Scotty It's from the Hi-max stable Scotty, and is the new version of the Airbike. Check out the attached brochure. I have a more detailed colour brochure if you are interested. Just PM me. Pud aero-max.pdf aero-max.pdf aero-max.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Thanks Pud! Likey likey! :thumb_up: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 this is a very ugly a/c........ Beauty is in the eye of the beholder cficare - just look at my avatar:big_grin:. Now I'm not saying this is a beautiful aircraft, just an example of a less costly way (compared to some other ways) of acquiring an aircraft Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Beauty is in the eye of the beholder cficare - just look at my avatar:big_grin:. Now I'm not saying this is a beautiful aircraft, just an example of a less costly way (compared to some other ways) of acquiring an aircraftPud Pud...you have hit the nail on the head. Being up there is not a fashion statement! Its just the fact you are up there is amazing and that is affordable! Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Pud...you have hit the nail on the head. Being up there is not a fashion statement! Its just the fact you are up there is amazing and that is affordable!Scotty I emailed for some extra info on this aircraft because I'm looking around for my next project, seeing as how my Thruster is nearly there. I was surprised to get a call from one David Trump who works out of Tassie, where apparently they manufacture the Aero-max. We spoke for a bit and he sent me an email as well, with a more comprehensive brochure attached. If you would like it (too big to attach here) then PM me your email addresss and I'll send it to you. Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 not having a go Pud...we have one here...its (my opinion only)underpowered and uncomfortable to fly....might work in the tropics...warm legs? and friendly wasps that fly up your trousers! No worries cficare, and I tend to agree with your opinion of the Aero-max beauty!! What is your experience with the Aero-max - is it a fun machine for say an hour of stooging around early one summers day or a late flight when the sun is nearly down? Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exadios Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I suspect once the market segment for plastic fantastics is saturated the aviation manufacturing industry will stagnate like how the string bag manufacturers are now. Just need oil to hit $150 a barrell again.Next big thing will be electric planes and I suspect 600kgs will be too much for the current battery technology. Peak oil occured in 1967 - 1968. Since then we have just been running on what's left in the tank. I think with current battery technology, 600kgs will be too little. Unfortunately there are presently no batteries that match liquid fuels for Joules / Kg or Joules / M^2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pudestcon Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Peak oil occured in 1967 - 1968. Since then we have just been running on what's left in the tank.I think with current battery technology, 600kgs will be too little. Unfortunately there are presently no batteries that match liquid fuels for Joules / Kg or Joules / M^2. http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/-/wa/9322747/woodside-makes-oil-discovery-off-wa-coast/ Pud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winsor68 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I really like the look of the Aero-Max... I think this is the website http://www.jdtmini-max.com/ There doesn't seem to be a lot of info on it yet... It certainly fits the bill for in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnarly Gnu Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 The training might cost you more than the powered parachute? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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